Birds, Birds, Birds!

[muddinram2duck]

Ok guys I want to get some thoughts here and suggestions..I am having an issue with my dog Samson that has gone on too long. some of you who have trained with me know what I am talking about. If Samson retrieves a real duck, live or dead he will not pick up a bumper from that point after.

You can throw the marks with bumpers and he will pick them up fine, turn and run the blind and pick up the bumper from the pile just fine. It is the combination of the two that is giving me problems.

to make matters worse, I have in the past placed a bird on the blind stake, along with the bumpers, and run him first so that I can run the blind. This only reinforced him to choose the bird instead of the bumper. I have walked out with him to the blind and he will pick up the bumper on "Fetch".

He will handle to the blind, see that there are only bumpers, not pick them up, then go into "hunt" mode for a real bird. Then we get into the battle of getting him back to the line, or trying to cast him back to the pile where he knows there is no bird. I did his force fetch and will admit that it was not done correctly. It was more of a condition to fetch as opposed to force. I don't think this is as a result of a shotty force fetch job, but may be impacted by it somewhat. I am looking for a drill or advice as to what I could do to work out of this. My initial thought is to use ducks and bumpers in some drill work at shorter, tighter distances. Ex, T-work with ducks and bumpers..I know he is a "MEAT" dog and I would rather him be "Birdy" than than not pick up real birds, but I want to fix this issue. any suggestions or experience with this would be greatly appreciated.

Mudd

[Damn_It_Boy]

It's dead in here on weekends mud, so it will probably be Monday b4 you get some quality answers. Havining worked with this dog many times, I have/had already formed an opinion, but will hold my thoughts until I see what the guru's have to say.

Teaser for you to "think" about.

From Lardy Vol. I

"Force-fetching is the procedure whereby the dog is trained to pick up an object on command."

"It is certainly possible to hunt successfully with an unforced dog, but your training foundation will be a house of cards that can collaspe one day when your dog's natural inclinations conflict with your commands."

"Force-fetch teaches your dog to retrieve under pressure and to learn to control or master the pressure."

[KWAKHED]

I'm not a pro by any means, but I always considered FF to be more than just ear pinching on a table. It is a process of many steps. Like DIB posted it is the process of teaching them to force on command, but under any circumstances. Just my two cents.

[gator]

DIB FOR PRESIDENT....DIB.....DIB.....DIB....

[Damn_It_Boy]

DIB FOR PRESIDENT....DIB.....DIB.....DIB....

piss on ya gator.........beer piss...........

[waterbug]

President DIB and VP Gator... Now that would be a beer summit.

I have watched Sampson do this many times when we are using birds. Mudd: I don't know what the answer to this problem would be other than FF and FTP. It has never bothered me personally when we are training together.

How about a FF refresher course using birds first then bumpers, then a short FTP where a bird or two is picked up first, then dog is sent/forced to pile on nothing but bumpers. Start out short on the FTP and gradually extend out to 100 yards.

The pros should chime in on Monday.

Never heard anyone ever say, someone shoot that bumper it's getting away... No bumpers in tests or hunting....

By the way, Im going training in the morning if you want to go. Bug

[muddinram2duck]

I may go through a FF refresher and/or a walking fetch-no fetch with birds and bumpers.

again, without seeing birds he will pick up "anything" that you send him for and will fetch on command.

[Damn_It_Boy]

Read this again.....

"It is certainly possible to hunt successfully with an unforced dog, but your training foundation will be a house of cards that can collaspe one day when your dog's natural inclinations conflict with your commands."

[Jeff]

IF FF has been done before, I would re-visit it. However I would not start it at the blind pile of bumpers. Reason being don't know how old Samson is, but you don't want to teach him there are any bad vibes at the blind steak. I would make him pick up bumpers at the house, then I'd make him pick up anything else I had laying around to get the idea across. Broom handles, paint brushes, anything until he had the idea he picks up what you want, not what he wants.

This is one of those things that falls in the OB/command category and the longer you let it go, the worse it will be to fix it. IMO of course

[muddinram2duck]

Read this again.....

"It is certainly possible to hunt successfully with an unforced dog, but your training foundation will be a house of cards that can collaspe one day when your dog's natural inclinations conflict with your commands."

i understand statement above

what is the suggestion to fix?, he is 3 years old now. start with revisiting FF? what are some methods to test a properly FF dog vs. unforced?

Jeff thanks for the suggestions. he will fetch on command broom stick, wood block, etc...in the past after he has done this, I have walked him out to the blind stake and burned to pick up the bumper and of course he will pick it up...turn around and run the blind again and he will pick up the bumper just fine. It is immediately after he picks up a real bird that he goes into his own and looking to pick up a bird as if he is not supposed to pick up the bumpers.

I have run marks with birds, run the blind with bumpers and experienced this issue. Put him back in the box, run another dog. pull him out and run marks with bumpers and he will pick up the bumper on the blind just fine...

[chance]

Try walking fetch with a line of alternating birds and bumpers. Fetch a bird while walking. Then go back and "No" off a bird, then command "Fetch" on a bumper. Stay walking while doing this so he does not have time to think, just follow the command.
Since you say he is CC'd, you can reinforce the command with a collar correction. This drill, when executed properly and thoroughly, helps solidify a dog to fetch on command.

[muddinram2duck]

i think this might be the first thing i try.

[goosebruce]

Most espeically birdy dogs will do just this. Id do the walking fetch alternating thingy, and then when I put him in the field, Id be close enough I could correct for it to show him what I want. All he's thinking is, there are birds, why settle for plastic. Hes just being birdy, teach him he doesn't get the option and it'll work out fine. travis

[muddinram2duck]

thanks travis. will go with the walking fetch and see how he reacts, if I think we have eliminated the issue then transition into the field at short distances.
What do you think of 2 separate piles/stakes at about 40-50 yds, one with ducks, one with bumpers? I think this is going to take some time to tone down the urge for birds.

[flyntwt]

Most espeically birdy dogs will do just this. Id do the walking fetch alternating thingy, and then when I put him in the field, Id be close enough I could correct for it to show him what I want. All he's thinking is, there are birds, why settle for plastic. Hes just being birdy, teach him he doesn't get the option and it'll work out fine. travis

Never had this problem, but this sounds like a logical approach. Good luck.

Real Birdy aint all bad regards,

Warren