a topic of discussion......

[goosebruce]

Over the years I can't recount how many times Ive heard about a test, and the phrase 'dogs where handling on all 3 marks' comes up (meaning, that at times, different dogs had to be handled to the area of all 3 falls). Sometimes this phrase is a good thing, yet often this phrase is used in a negative sense. Without putting a spin on it myself, Id like an honest opinion about that phrase. First of 'just' that phrase, without any other context, what does it mean to you. And then, with context, how it could mean one of those things, or the other. I'd rather NOT say anything until I get some opinions from the very expereinced, the kinda expereinced, the inexperienced and dib. bwhahahaha.

No wrong answer here. I'm looking for opinions. travis

[GulfCoast]

I am pretty inexperianced in the grand scheme of things, but from my perspective, if different dogs have to be handled to each of the 2 memory birds, sounds like good bird placement in a test. If a bunch of dogs have to be handled TO the AOF on the GO bird also, sounds like something not foreseen is going on, at least on that mark.

Any betting pools on who gonna post after me and tell me I am nuts?

[cdwyer]

Well after seeing four series in this past Grand, there were several conversations regarding this very topic but all positive. Every mark we saw was very well placed, no tricks or anything unforseen by the judges. These are the setups that test the best of the best but maybe a little over the top for an average weekend test.

Hopefuly when you have this situation its a result of excellent bird placement.

[Trykon]

My initial thought if i herd that phrase is there are 3 very well placed marks out there. This past grand was a prime example of this phrase. Every bird in every series had the potential to need a handle. They were all very well placed marks as well as blinds. Now as Charles said these are not your every weekend marks these were true grand marks. Hearing this phrase at the grand i would say it's the grand it's why we come here to test our dogs. Now at a weekend test i may question what was going on and have to see the scenario with me own eyes.

[duckdawg27]

Anytime multiple dogs are handling on multiple marks it worries me about my upcoming time at the line.
It especially worries me if I'm the one who set it up.
I do believe my first thought would be that the test set up was giving quite a few of the dogs a run for their money. Not necessarily that the set up was "bad"....I would have to see that one to make my own "opinion".
It could just be that the field of dogs that showed up that day were by in large not up to the task at hand.
The only way this translates into a good thing is if we pass it

[skuna]

if someone says that the majority of the dogs in a test were handling on all three marks of one series, I would get the sense that marks were poorly placed and were where they were difficult for the dog to see, which is in my opinion a poor test for marking.

I've honestly never seen a series in finished or masters where this occured....cant speak for the grand.

[Doc & Nash]

Depending on how you look at it and the situation it could be good or bad.

The good,

The judges took their time and actually utilized bird placement to test the dogs true marking ability. I consider myself an inexperienced handler and judge but I do know a foot or three one way or the other on bird placement can make or break just about any dog in the field, with both marks and blinds. A good judge can not only recognize that, but also utilize it in a test to gain another aspect to judge the dog/handler team. Just because a dog handles on two marks does not nessescarly mean they did not meet the requirments of marking. This situation will normally be recognized by various dogs having to handle on differend birds, being no one bird is giving any more dogs trouble than any other. But don't confuse this with the preveriable "money bird".

The "money bird" in my opinion is one mark with excellent winger/bird placement and two other "normal" marks.

The bad.

There could be many reasons but the first that comes to mind is poor bird/winger placement. If a dog is not able to see the bird then how can it be expected for him to mark it. I have seen on numerous occasion where the mark does not clear a tree line or thrown inside the shadows and it can barely be seen by the judges & handler much less the dog, you add two or more bad marks in a series then you will see dogs handling TO the area on multiple marks. If a set up is consistantly having a majority of the dog having to handle TO the area then you have dorked up bird. Some people would call this the "money bird" but not me. There is no satisfaction picking up a bird that your dog did not see and just happen to carry the line you sent them on only to get down wind and Stumble On the Bird (SOB). From a judges stand point the dog techinically did not mark the bird but because the judges provided a dorked up bird for you to test on then he has to judge dorked up marking with dorked up results. I truely believe this is where "judging accordingly" comes from. As a judge I hate more than anything than putting myself in a position where I have to "Judge accordingly" Sometimes it is a must, due to not having anyother choices but in my book I don't think it should ever be the norm, it should always be the exception.

My .02.... for what it is worth?????? (good part about this is Travis will tear it apart and I will get to learn something new today) HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[T-Bone]

Over the years I can't recount how many times Ive heard about a test, and the phrase 'dogs where handling on all 3 marks' comes up (meaning, that at times, different dogs had to be handled to the area of all 3 falls). Sometimes this phrase is a good thing, yet often this phrase is used in a negative sense. Without putting a spin on it myself, Id like an honest opinion about that phrase. First of 'just' that phrase, without any other context, what does it mean to you. And then, with context, how it could mean one of those things, or the other. I'd rather NOT say anything until I get some opinions from the very expereinced, the kinda expereinced, the inexperienced and dib. bwhahahaha.

No wrong answer here. I'm looking for opinions. travis

I dont know where you are headed with this except maybe filling in for the O'wise one that is up Norf but I will bite on your open ended question with 878 different variables that could exist!!

As others have eluded, it depends on the type of test -weekend Finished, weekend Master or Grand. (cant comment on Master Natl or FT's only ran one Q to date and zero MN's). Like Charles and Clark have mentioned at the SD Grand that very comment was uttered at every test. Atmospheric condtions changed within minutes on each test. One minute it would be 55 degrees cloudy with a left to right 18mph wind then 5 minutes later a right to left 5mph wind with 15 degree temp change and sunny.(that is no exaggeration) happend on our 1st series at Purina water that cut 30 out of 75. So yes there were handles on ALL 3 marks by Different dogs at different times throughout the day during our test.

What caused these handles on ALL 3 marks(at the spring Grand:
(1) bird placement (2) atmospheric conditions: wind, sun, shade (3) paths made by dogs with different winds (4) dog creeping/head swinging (5) big hunt on a bird and burned memory (6) conditioning of dog which effects desire/heart (7) and last but not least....dragback!!!!

At a weekend Finished test if someone said that there were handles on all 3 birds then I would say I say that I would have to see the test and know what the atmospheric conditions were at the time of the test...find out the level of dogs running (if you had a lot of young HR dogs running 1st or 2nd Finished test and not ready for a TRUE Finished test----which seems to be prevalent lately with handlers pushing their dogs to for CH before joeblow or before 14months)

Someone saying that in a negative sense could possiblybe saying "that the test was so hard that dogs had to be handled on all 3 marks." In a positive sense or challenging way the are saying that "it was a good marking test that you had to have a dog to run!" t

[gator]

simply semantics....dogs where handling on three marks.

that doesn't necessarily mean EVERY dog was handling on ALL THREE marks. it COULD mean that collectively, many dogs had to handle at SOME POINT or as it is implied here, many dogs handling on ALL marks.

again, just a context thing.

IMHO, many dogs having to handle at some point doesn't mean any one thing to me. it could mean good bird placement, early or late tests in which many big dogs are not running or young dogs making their first runs, or it could mean a dorked up test. it's just something i'd have to see really.

also, IMHO, a test that many dogs are handling on ALL marks (meaning dog after dog fails to pick up a bird clean) doesn't really have a place ANYWHERE in the hunt test arena, finished/master or grand/master national......and, i'd doubt it has a place in a field trial either.

gator

[CF]

age and EXPERIENCE of the handler makes a huge difference when asked about this....he!l plain old (not related to dog games) life experience makes a difference from one person to the next...


now to me bird placement would be the first thing that comes to mind. I think that you can tell when the test ain't junk with windmills and sand traps...and...it is a good test set by good judges and the dogs are simply being handled due to the factors...


goosie...you know my experience level (ain't much) so hope that helps...

CF's 2 cents anyway.......

[goosebruce]

benjy, we're not talking about dogs handling on all 3 marks themselves, but over a flight of dogs, or all the dogs in a training group, dogs having to handle on any of the 3 birds in a series. the left bird, the middle bird, the right bird, all causing dogs to handle at some point.

good thoughts so far, I like it.

Obvious pitfalls where it would be a negative comment where pointed out from the very beginging. Mechanics of the test, visibilty of the birds, or some type of situation a dog simply wouldn't be able to recognize from the line (i.e. tricks).

obvious situations where it could be postive recognized as well. bird placement, atmosphric condtions, trails etc.

obvious situations where lack of control could cause it, ergo not being the marks themselves, like head swinging and creeping.

So I think from this discussion it can be a postive or negative thing. With good mechanics and visible birds and no tricks, it would indicate well thought out marking series. With something happening to not make it reasonable for the dogs to see and understand the birds, it would be a nagative comment.

Trey pointed out something I think worthy. The proverbial money bird. Is the money bird with 2 other marks thrown as a diversion to the test of 'the' bird really worthy of a triple marking scenario (assuming a suitable place to have a test to begin with)? Is a one dimesional test (i.e. the money bird) preferable to 2 or 3 marks being placed to adequelty test marking and memory? if our other marks are simply diversions to the money bird, are we testing marking and memory adequetly? Does it matter if its a 'money' bird, or a MONEY bird? Does it matter at what level we are testing? Does it matter how many birds are being thrown ? travis

[Doc & Nash]

Trey pointed out something I think worthy. The proverbial money bird. Is the money bird with 2 other marks thrown as a diversion to the test of 'the' bird really worthy of a triple marking scenario (assuming a suitable place to have a test to begin with)? Is a one dimesional test (i.e. the money bird) preferable to 2 or 3 marks being placed to adequelty test marking and memory? if our other marks are simply diversions to the money bird, are we testing marking and memory adequetly? Does it matter if its a 'money' bird, or a MONEY bird? Does it matter at what level we are testing? Does it matter how many birds are being thrown ? travis

IMO a test set up with one money bird and two gimmies is not much of a test nor did it take much experience/education to set it up. Ideally, I would rather run/judge a test where there are at least two truely finished marks placed well if not all three. Keep in mind a 28yd mark can be just as difficult if not harder than a 100 yd mark. But I will say, I do not feel the "memory bird should be the hardest bird of the series. If you set it up that way your are asking for failures, unless you "judge accordingly" by increasing the AoF. But then again, why put yourself in that position? As a handler I would much rather run a test where the "accomplished retriever" is challenged. Not a test where the inexperienced dog gets a finished pass because he got lucky on the one true finished mark, and the accomplished retriever gets dropped because of something dorked up.

[skuna]

benjy, we're not talking about dogs handling on all 3 marks themselves, but over a flight of dogs, or all the dogs in a training group, dogs having to handle on any of the 3 birds in a series. the left bird, the middle bird, the right bird, all causing dogs to handle at some point.

travis

UHHHHHH....ok, that just sounds like good marks to me.

[CF]

As a handler I would much rather run a test where the "accomplished retriever" is challenged. Not a test where the inexperienced dog gets a finished pass because he got lucky on the one true finished mark, and the accomplished retriever gets dropped because of something dorked up.

Says it all...to me anyway

[T-Bone]

awrite ....you got your opinions like you requested now give us the skinny on the intent!