HEART WORMS

[Drakeshead]

I've heard of a large kennel in Arkansas using straight Ivermect still had breakthroughs.

This would make sense since Ivermec is the ingredient in Heartguard to kill heartworms.

[CF]

...just thinking here...but...I wonder if the breakthroughs have something to do with the breed? maybe it happens more with labs as opposed to collies...dalmations etc.

...anyone done a study along those lines?

[goosebruce]

Ivermectin only stays in the body for a short period of time, no matter if dosed in the tiny amounts of hartguard, or the realistic doses those using straight are giving. That very well may be part of the equation on breakthrus with it, and the biggest benefit we (my vet and I) can see to giving the advantage product. With 4 dogs, Im spending 65 bucks a month on hartworm meds, but that sure beats what I was spending on meds to come up with postives.

Lots and lots of info being digested and processed on the breakthrus. I would imagine before this year is out, there will be new protocols on what is considered normal, and ok to do, in the effected area (wth memphis probably being ground zero). travis

[Greenhead22]

I've heard of a large kennel in Arkansas using straight Ivermect still had breakthroughs.

This would make sense since Ivermec is the ingredient in Heartguard to kill heartworms.

Who knows that there is enough ivermec in each heartguard tablet to kill the worms? Obviously, it isn't. If you use 100% ivermectin, you know what you are getting.

[Troy Williams]

I've heard of a large kennel in Arkansas using straight Ivermect still had breakthroughs.

This would make sense since Ivermec is the ingredient in Heartguard to kill heartworms.

Who knows that there is enough ivermec in each heartguard tablet to kill the worms? Obviously, it isn't. If you use 100% ivermectin, you know what you are getting.

GH22 is exactly right and from what I've learned 1 cc is roughly 100 times the dose on that is in HeartGuard chewables.

T-
I dose on 1st and 15th. 1/2 each. Why that is is this:
Something to consider about prophylactics....I wonder if the growing cycle of worms has changed and the window in which the worms are killed as they develop thru the body has changed and therefore their advacement into the adult lifecyle is makeing them impervious to Ivermectin. ORRRRR....the dose in HG is so low that it's not working it's way thru the body and eliminating the microfilaria and some are escaping the treatment. BUTTTT that really doesn't follow to me because you should actually catch them on your next dose. They don't grow that fast. OR DO THEY? If the microfilria are aging faster, then "twice monthly" does makes more sense.

Do I know that for sure? NO. Will I ever find that out? No, not unless some scientist tells us so.

I simply "think and act" and much like all of you, so far.....so good!

Troy

[goosebruce]

I defiently think troys approach is the right way. because once a month of a short acting drug is obviously not working (from all of the breakthrus on different products). travis

[Drakeshead]

On of the main issues with Heartguard is that Ivermic has a very short half life. So, if the worms can just get through the first 48 hours, they are pretty much going to make it until the next treatment. Some people give it on the 1 and 15 like someone has suggested with Ivermec.

The Ivermec that is purchase from cattle/feed stores is only 1% ivermec.

I have a bottle if ivermec as was going to use it with my Heartguard treatment; give Heartguard and then two weeks later Ivermec. Well, when it came time to give my Heartguard one Sunday morning I did so. Later that day one of my dogs was 30 minutes from death. The first thing the vet as was if she had gotten into our rat poison. I said "Huh? I do not own rat poison!" Vet said the symptoms were those of a poisoning. Well, this female is also in a kennal with another female and there one male in each kennel on either side of the females. So, if someone was to go out to poison one dog, it would have been tough. So, I went with the notion that it might, MIGHT have been the ivermec that I had given her two weeks prior and the Heartguard might have had an adverse reaction. So, I stopped the Ivermec. This may not have been the case, but after having to carry her into the Vet that Sunday and the Vet saying that she is probably not going to pull through I felt it best to just no longer give the Ivermec.

Anyone want it, they can have it. I will mail it or if you live close by I will meet you and give it to you.

[pstone]

I had a pos test on strait Ivermec last summer. Dosed once a month, .1 cc for every 10 pounds of weight. Actually the dog is 90 pounds and I was giving him 1 cc.... Going for HW tests in a couple weeks, hope I don't have a repeat...

[cheeko]

Advantage M is around 100.0 for a six month supply.If you use front line and Heartguard it is cheaper to go with the Advantage M.At least at my vet.Some trainers use Heartguard on the lst thru the 15 then intersepter or straight ivermec on the 15 thru the 30th and they are still testing pos.Is this to much on the dogs liver or not I think its just a bad booty worm out there thats throwing the postive test.I think my dog is getting infected during the early part of duck season ( Tunica Co ).Pstone i hope that your test comes back neg.Good luck.

[Troy Williams]

On of the main issues with Heartguard is that Ivermic has a very short half life. So, if the worms can just get through the first 48 hours, they are pretty much going to make it until the next treatment. Some people give it on the 1 and 15 like someone has suggested with Ivermec.

The Ivermec that is purchase from cattle/feed stores is only 1% ivermec.

I have a bottle if ivermec as was going to use it with my Heartguard treatment; give Heartguard and then two weeks later Ivermec. Well, when it came time to give my Heartguard one Sunday morning I did so. Later that day one of my dogs was 30 minutes from death. The first thing the vet as was if she had gotten into our rat poison. I said "Huh? I do not own rat poison!" Vet said the symptoms were those of a poisoning. Well, this female is also in a kennal with another female and there one male in each kennel on either side of the females. So, if someone was to go out to poison one dog, it would have been tough. So, I went with the notion that it might, MIGHT have been the ivermec that I had given her two weeks prior and the Heartguard might have had an adverse reaction. So, I stopped the Ivermec. This may not have been the case, but after having to carry her into the Vet that Sunday and the Vet saying that she is probably not going to pull through I felt it best to just no longer give the Ivermec.

Anyone want it, they can have it. I will mail it or if you live close by I will meet you and give it to you.

So on Sunday you gave dog HG and the dog got sick and you think it was the straight Ivermectin that you gave two weeks earlier and not the HG???? Or am I reading that wrong?

Just trying to understand for my dogs safety......

Troy

[Mark Sehon]

I guess, I'm just luckey.

[Meeka]

My vet says the point .1 cc per 10 pounds body weight (Ithink I got the fractions right) for ivermection is a max dose and you can give a fraction of that and be safe and still get more med that with heartguard. So instead of .6cc, I can give say .3 and still get the benefit and have an added measure of safety.

She also mentioned the 6 month injection that was taken off the market was retested and seems to be fine to use as long as the dog has no health issues when the injection is given. So i'm gonna tray that since i am so horrible with dates.

[Drakeshead]

So on Sunday you gave dog HG and the dog got sick and you think it was the straight Ivermectin that you gave two weeks earlier and not the HG???? Or am I reading that wrong?

Just trying to understand for my dogs safety......

Troy

Yes, you are correct. I give Heartguard on the 24 of each month, just worked out that way at some point in time, but due to her showing a slight heartworm positive on her test I went with Ivermec two weeks prior and then my normal Heartguard on the 24. I followed the instructions, etc. I am not saying for certain that it was the Ivermec, but everything else was normally with her diet and everything over the past months with the exception of giving her the Ivermec two weeks prior. So, just to be safe I stopped giving her Ivermec.

What happened was this:
It was a Sunday and I had originally planned to head over to Simmons Sporting goods in Bastrop, LA, but ended up not going. This ended up being a good thing. Son went out back to feed the dogs and clean their kennels. He goes out and is not out there but about 30 seconds and comes back in saying the Emma was limping when her let her out of her and Abby's kennel. He hates to do the kennels as the dogs do not listen to him so I assumed that he was just doing his procrastinating. I tell him that I will be out there in a few minutes to check on her. He goes out and basically comes right back in saying that there is blood all in the kennel. I then head straight outside. Emma gets about 20 yards, 2/3 of the way to the house, and falls out on the ground. Dark blood is all her the kennel and she is covered in blood. I tell the wife to get the Vet on the phone while I load up a kennel in my truck to put her in so we can get her to the Vet. The Vet had just left from doing her weekend on call check-ups, so she would be there when we arrived. By the time we got there Emma was completely limp. The Vet shaved her arm down to start an IV, but her blood pressure was so low that we had to grab her front left arm just about the wrist and squeeze as tight was we could so the vain would inflate and then hold the arm just below the elbow so it would stay up. Well, we get all that going while the machine is running test on the blood. I can't recall all of the test results, but some of her liver test where so high they would not register. Her liver and kidneys were on their last legs.

I still do not know what caused this to happen, but as stated previously the only things that had changed was the on dosage of Ivermec two weeks prior. It may not have been the cause of this, but I did not want to chance it.

[Adonika]

Ooooookie dokie folks. Time for a little heartworm lesson. First, regardless of the name, no heartworm preventative ever actually PREVENTS the heartworms. The stuff kills them before they get to be adults and do any damage... THUS since most of the tests test for the little antigens in the blood when the larvae are present, if you test your dog for the antigens around the time you give the meds they can come up POSITIVE and never actually have a case of treatable heartworms. Get it? Heartworm larvae in the blood, heartworm meds kill them but they still have the antigens in the blood that cause the test to come up positive. So what you do is keep them on HW meds, retest in 2 weeks to 30 days and if they are still positive, then treat, otherwise, you're fine. Also of note... if you actually have a case of heartworms, you shouldn't do an antigen test on them for up to 5-6 months... because they will still come up positive.

[Greenhead22]

Ooooookie dokie folks. Time for a little heartworm lesson. First, regardless of the name, no heartworm preventative ever actually PREVENTS the heartworms. The stuff kills them before they get to be adults and do any damage... THUS since most of the tests test for the little antigens in the blood when the larvae are present, if you test your dog for the antigens around the time you give the meds they can come up POSITIVE and never actually have a case of treatable heartworms. Get it? Heartworm larvae in the blood, heartworm meds kill them but they still have the antigens in the blood that cause the test to come up positive. So what you do is keep them on HW meds, retest in 2 weeks to 30 days and if they are still positive, then treat, otherwise, you're fine. Also of note... if you actually have a case of heartworms, you shouldn't do an antigen test on them for up to 5-6 months... because they will still come up positive.

ding ding ding we have a winner !!!

My vet just retired after over 50 yrs in the business. He said that 90% of the dogs that would be tested for heartworms in his office would test positive.........not because of an actual adult worm.......because of the larva.