No BS Gundog training

[Glenn]

Some of the things I have been trying to implement into my training program: working dog on a platform attached to tree, using a lay down blind with dog beside it in dog blind, working out of skid blind. Also try and get dogs used to spinners, motion decoys, etc Just trying to do more practical hunting scenarios. Agree with Charles on minimum training for most gun dogs.

[Meeka]

Evan, the well trained hunting dog needs all the same tools taught through at least mid transition. Every one of them. There is not anything in your program that a dog can do without and hunt well.

Your post may be motivated by the guy who says I just want a good hunting dog, why do I have to go through the whole regimin? The answer is that if you go through the whole program, you will have a better hunting dog than you ever imagined. Lots of us started with that same mindset.

But besides the standard stuff through mid transition or so, I'd add some specific scenting and finding drills, which conflict somewhat with handling skills - the "dead bird" or "hunt it up" command, that I might use to get the dog on autopilot, so to speak. And specific skill training like atv and boat loading and riding, a "go hide" command, and the like.

signed, dave - the guy without a collar in the snow in north miss with no way to correct his dog.

[chance]

I have hunted with and hunted around a bunch of retirevers in my 30 years of duck hunting. Training levels from really don't know their name to FC/AFC titled dogs. I was a full time guide for one year and carried my GRHRCH UH every day. Here is the training level I want for my personal gundog.

Basic obedience is not enough. I want my dog to sit where I put it and stay till I release it. I want it to come when I call it. Quiet while ducks are working. Anything less than that, keep em on lead.

Force fetch. Ever see a dog pick up a mallard and totally refuse to pick up a wood duck?

Good marking skills. Marks are normally inside decoys.

MUST have competent handling skills. Dogs picking up long marks are impressive. I will pick up that duck plus every other one we shoot if my dog will handle.

Exposure to all the elements that we may face during duck season. Four wheelers, boats, pit blinds, decoys, whatever fits your need.

My list is rather simple. It takes the same training to get a very competent hunting retriever as it does to get one that is successful in competion. All competion dogs are not good hunting companions. Line manners come to mind. One cannot differentiate training for gun dogs from training for hunt test dogs.

[EvanG]

Evan, the well trained hunting dog needs all the same tools taught through at least mid transition. Every one of them. There is not anything in your program that a dog can do without and hunt well.

Your post may be motivated by the guy who says I just want a good hunting dog, why do I have to go through the whole regimin? The answer is that if you go through the whole program, you will have a better hunting dog than you ever imagined. Lots of us started with that same mindset.

I appreciate that, and I agree. But it's important to hear from everyone, no matter what their ideas are.

Thanks,
EvanG

[Faithful Retrievers]

Plain and simple, folks want a dog that will be calm in blind/boat be steady and get the duck. Nothing fancy just want the dog to get the duck so they can keep shooting. I have seen peopled tickled pink when they picked up there dog with good solid ob wouldn't break and brought the duck back. Blinds were something they were either unaware of or weren't worried about. As long as they got what they wanted I wasn't worried about it. Also some folks are cheap so two months getting the dog some training is killing them. Any how just thought we would throw a simple answer to a what seems to be a complicated question.

[EvanG]

Guys & Gals,

I can't thank you enough for your thoughtful replies. Nearly all of us hunts, no matter what field games we may also play. But the thoughts expressed here represent ideas that are often considered out of the mainstream because so much of our training discussion is aimed toward the high standards of testing venues.

I hope something good can come from this, even if it's just more respect for the gundog guy or gal who has no desire to play the games. I've had a desire for a long time to go a gundog project, but have never been comfortable enough with my ideas about it to proceed.
It's refreshing to see that an overwhelming majority of replies began with OBEDIENCE!!!

Again, thanks to all.

EvanG

[gator]

i guess i just can not imagine hunting over a dog i hadn't put through the same program i would a dog that i had hopes of competing and/or passing upper level test or trials.

i just see too much good come from it.

IMHO, you train the dog to the highest level and the "stuff" you get while hunting generally works itself out due to good ole experience -- think skippyj stated on the job training -- well, cripples, diving birds, watching for birds, etc etc...all that will come w/ experience.

some things you just can't train for, no matter how much camo you sport or how many decoys you put out. thing is, the dog that's being trained to the tip of the sword, typically has the where-with-all to figure out that which you can't train for.

gator

[cdwyer]

Justin,

Awsome web site youve put together!

[dukdawgn]

First puppy I had for hunting, he was taught to:
a) kennel from a distance, so I could point to the truck or 4tire and send him to it
b) sit until told otherwise (sometimes that worked, sometimes not)
c) mark and retrieve from the back of an ATV (ride ATV also)
d) mark and retrieve from sitting beside me
e) double marks
f) 50 yard blind retrieves (mostly out and over)
g) send into ditch banks with trees and brush everywhere
h) mark out of make-shift blind w/ dog hole
i) fetch whatever he was sent for (any duck, once in 10yr spec belly, etc)
j) soft mouth so he does not ruin the bird (no matter if bird is for food or the wall)
k) work with other dogs present
l) work for someone else that is with me
m) watch the sky


That worked fine for a vast majority of what I shot down and my most common hunting grounds. When I expanded where I would hunt, all heck broke loose, and I found more things I needed to train for (most of them where hunting grounds scenarios; teach him muscle memory, per say).

The dog had a heck of a nose already, and had the instincts to use it well. That was a huge plus. And he would watch the sky on his own (note: sky, not look for wingers/bird boys)

My present dog has had much more training, and has picked up blind retrieves at least 300+yds. Yet I found out last year she had no clue what was up with hunting from a pit. I'd never been over that with her, and when I joined Trav's crew in east arky to hunt, she was always late seeing the birds fall because she was staring at me while guns were down. When we'd raise up, she'd look, but would not spot every bird. So, actually she had to learn how to watch the sky, not just look down my gun barrel as she sat beside me.

I guess to me, my hunting dog must possess what I listed above, and I could go hunting. I would enjoy it much more if the dog had better handling skills, but at the bare minimum, the dog must do these things.

[Meeka]

in your language, early to mid transition equals HRCH and top notch duck dawg, IMO.

[Denlan4]

Evan,

I have contemplated your question quite a bit. Perhaps you may appreciate my thoughts on the matter...if not, take it easy on me ;o) If you really like my ideas, maybe you could send me an autographed copy of your next book.

First I would like to comment that I believe that Obedience is basic not is the sense of "simple" but rather the "foundation" in any kind of dog training...like many endeavours the excellence of the basics is key to the advanced concepts.

My buddy and I have been waterfowl hunting together for over 35 years with and without a retriever. When I got my first hunting labrador (litter mates) puppies over 20 years ago, my wife made the comment that I spent more time with my dogs than most parents spend with their kids! She was most probably right. I did train those labs to the master level and I enjoyed the time doing it. But with today's prices how much does a finished retriever worth?...$4K?...More? 200 man- hours?...More?

One of the points here that I want to make is that in terms of R.O.I. (Return of Investment). When I first started learning about training my dogs, I spent much more time training my retrievers than I did hunting waterfowl. For the "practical" waterfowler, perhaps a dog does not fit in his/her life style, or perhaps he cannot afford the cost of a retriever, or maybe he cannot afford the time needed for caring for and training a hunting retriever. Or maybe he just doesn't like dogs that much. In any event, these factors may affect the decision on "how much dog" he wants. On this website, you may be "preaching to the choir". That is most people here probably love their dogs, train a lot and like hunt tests.

I hunt many times with dogless waterfowlers. I am the dog guy. Some of my hunting friends have dogs, but the dogs are useless to bring at best and a nuisance at worst. These buddies like the shooting action most. They appreciate the retriever fetching their ducks but, they would not invest their time and/or money in getting one...at least not at this point in their life.

Even when I get a hunting-pedigreed pup say in the begining of the year it is obviously not ready to hunt. However, I am skilled enough now to have it ready to bring to the hunt for the coming season. And these would be my minimum requirements for my dog to be ready to bring along:

1. Quiet! No whining, barking, scratching.
2. Kennel.
3. House Broken. As well as my hunting dogs being companion/house/service dogs, on hunting trips we sometimes stay at motels that accept dogs. I don't want accidents.
4. Sit/Stay (Whistle and voice trained) No scootching around. Dog has been proofed to the max with cats, other dogs, honors, pigeons, ducks, pheasants, food, bumpers, toys, etc.
5. Come/Here (Whistle and voiced trained) Now...no fussing around.
6. Heel on leash. No pulling on leash, forging or lagging. I think that most guys take their dog off leash too soon for heeling off leash and lose control and get sloppy results. I think that it is generally accepted that it takes two years before a dog can heel well in the obedience ring.
7. Conditioned Fetch...no hard mouthing. No fumbling, no dropping the bird unless commanded.
8. Drop. Release the bird.
9. Place. I have a box, a mat, and a short plastic side table that my dog is trained to go to and be still. This affords the dog distance from the damaging shotgun noise and possibly a better (and maybe warmer/drier) position to mark the birds than being next to me.
10. Mark at least doubles. I usually hunt with a buddy and if a flock comes in there is usually more than one duck down. Even when I am by myself, I usually don't know exactly where that first bird lands, because I have trained my eyes to look for the second bird as the gun reaches the lead on the first; a target (doubles trap) technique taught by hall of famer Frank Little. I need the dog to help mark the birds. Eventough my dog may be sitting remotely, I keep my eyes on him as he can cue me with perked up ears and his stare that there might be a incoming duck that I may be coming in behind me. I usually don't have to move around so much because my dog has my back.
11. Find it. I would need my dog trained to track and hunt up ducks in a particular area. I will probably have to walk my dog over to the area I think the duck might be and tell him to find it.

With this I would be happy and satisfied with my dog. Everything else would be icing on the cake. I would guess it would take me about 30 minutes a day for at least 4 months to have my basic hunter retriever.

Maybe you can write a book to show us how to do it more efficiently, easier. Or Maybe write an illustrated book with realistic goals, options, expectations and "costs"...The Down and Dirty Retriever

[Copiah Creek]

HGH Number 7 gave you away , but nice try

[GulfCoast]

HGH Number 7 gave you away , but nice try

Denlan is not Hotty. If that IS Hotty, then she has ISP hiding skills superior to even Benny!

[Copiah Creek]

I could be wrong ,,,But if i saved it i got a responce from HGH ,,,came through as Denlan ,,,,,,subject never changed so im taking a wild guess

[waterbug]

I also have often thought they were one and the same based on the content of posts.