Am I just stupid?

[RIP EM]

Seems I heard a story once upon a time, where a rather moral, upstanding gentleman, turned 7 vats of water into wine !

Now what in the world, do you rekon, they did with that wine !???

THEY DRANK IT !!!

Correct me if I'm wrong ! And for goodness sakes, don't tell me it didn't have alcoholic content ! In that case he would have just left it as water !

However,... I don't think anyone at that paticular party was "commode hugin drunk" ! I don't think the "ALMIGHTY" would have approved of that !

Just makes one wonder..... don't it ???

Rip Em !

[grimes]

Beer, half-naked women, and hunting?

Where do I sign up?

A few drinks are fine after the hunt. The half-naked women are fine during the hunt, but they are very distracting.

[DucknRev]

Well...I know some of you won't like this...but I must commend Wingman's faith and convictions. It takes much of a man to say what he's said, whether you agree or not, it takes a lot to say it. Some of you know him personally. He is living his faith by saying what he feels is right due to his relationship to Christ.

I probably should not do this...but what the heck, I'm a preacher and I preach and teach, so here is the reasoning behind both the support AND the opposition on this topic.


New American Standard Bible
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NASB)
14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
1 Corinthians 2:15 (NASB)
15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
1 Corinthians 2:16 (NASB)
16For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

Now Rob, this is why so many are turned off by true Christianity. No one wants to live out convictions if they don't have them; and they are angered, not for the statements, but for the fact that they realize sin in their lives and they are not willing to confess, repent, and ask for strength. As for us, confession is a daily thing.

No sir Mr. Duckmen, Rob is not trying to judge you or anyone else. We don't have that authority; but we do have the authority to judge ACTIONS. Some are right, some are wrong. For Christians, it is not wise to do the things that non-Christians do. Why? I'm so glad you asked. Because there would be no visible DIFFERENCE in our lives.

[Chuckle12]

I also watched a program the other night where a hospital was doing studies on how prayer affected patients. Sounded good at first, until they mentioned that the prayer groups consisted of Muslims, Buddhists and Christians throughout the world. You see, you can't mix and match religion.

You can't mix and match religions!?!?!?! Is this the old "my way (and ONLY my way) is the right way speech" again? I for one believe that anyone praying for the well-being of another person is good no matter what religion. I hope you are not trying to say that Muslim and Buddhist religions are wrong, especially when trying to help someone.

[MSDuckmen]

Now Rob, this is why so many are turned off by true Christianity. No one wants to live out convictions if they don't have them; and they are angered, not for the statements, but for the fact that they realize sin in their lives and they are not willing to confess, repent, and ask for strength. As for us, confession is a daily thing.

No sir Mr. Duckmen, Rob is not trying to judge you or anyone else. We don't have that authority; but we do have the authority to judge ACTIONS. Some are right, some are wrong. For Christians, it is not wise to do the things that non-Christians do. Why? I'm so glad you asked. Because there would be no visible DIFFERENCE in our lives.

Well DucknRev I don't feel turned off by your definition of true Christianity. I just don't agree with your (NOTE YOUR) definition of true Christianity. You say you don't judge people but you do their actions. That statement alone is a load of crap. It is the actions of people that make them what and who they are and to judge one id to judge all.
Obviously you agree with Ron that drinking is bad and that is great. But with your statement above you have no less said that we are not Christians because we drink, and that is none Christian, than if you had been man enough to say it out right.

Since My last PM with Ron on this subject I was willing to let it go and then a man of God comes into the house of Duck and tells us that we wrong because we show no visible difference in our lives than a drunker would do.

I'll post this that I sent Ron in a PM for your benefit DucknRev. Being a man of cloth you can pick this clean to make your point but it is all in the same bible that you use on your daily confessions.

For your reading enjoyment

Despite your beliefs, the wine of the Bible was alcoholic: People could be intoxicated by it (Gen.9:21; I Sam. 1:14; Is. 28:1; Jer. 23:9). Believers were urged not to linger long over it (Prov. 23:30; Is. 5:11, 22; 28:1, 7; I Tim. 23:3,8; Tit. 1:7; 2:3). Priests were forbidden wine when engaging in sacerdotal activities (Lev. 10:9; Ex. 44:21), because it was alcoholic and could accidentally endanger worship (cf. Lev. 10:1-3). Even our Lord freely made (John 2:9, 10, cf. Luke 5:39) and partook of alcoholic wine, which led the Pharisees to falsely call Him a drunkard (Luke 7:33-35).
The Scriptures even allude to the allowed fermentation of wine "on the lees" and in wine bottles (Job 32:19; Prov. 3:10; Is. 25:6; Jer. 48:11; Zeph. 1:12; Matt. 9:17; Luke 7:37). Consequently, the preferred wine of Scripture is aged, i.e., fermented (e.g., Is. 25:6; Luke 5:39). In fact, Scripture allows the partaking of "all sorts of wines" (Neh. 5:18[1] ) when taken in moderation -- for the Bible resolutely condemns all inordinate imbibing which leads to drunkenness (Gen. 19:32; Prov. 23:29-35; Jer. 13:13-14; Ez. 23:28, 33; Hos. 4:11; Matt. 24:29; Luke 12:45; 21:34; Rom. 13:13; I Cor. 5:11; 6:10; Gal. 5:19,21; Eph. 5:18).
The whole Bible is our ethical guide, and in many places it forbids immoderate use. I agree that "God only needs to command once and after that...He expects to be obeyed." Remember the one allowed alcoholic beveratge is shekar ("strong drink"), which is a noun related to the verb for shakar ("drunk") and also to shikkar ("drunkard") and shikkaron ("drunkennes"). See Deut. 14:26 and Num 28:7. Use of wine must be in moderation, whether expressed in every context or not, because of the total Scripture.
Proverbs 20:1 says: "wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise" (NASV). The word translated "intoxicated" is the Hebrew shagah ("swerve, meander, reel"). It indicates being under the influence of wine, as in Isaiah 28:7. Wine leads to mockery and brawling when foolish men are intoxicated by it. Elsewhere wine is a blessing for the righteous (Deut. 14:26; Ps. 104:14, 15; Eccl. 9:7; Is 25:6; 55:1; Amos 9:13-15). Regardless, the very verse itself makes a clear "suggestion" of "moderation" (the same is true of Hos. 7:5).
If the statement "wine is a mocker" prohibits wine, then "knowledge makes arrogant" does the same for knowledge (I Cor. 8:1)! The negative and positive statements regarding the same thing should not surprise us, for good things can be abused, as are sex (Rom. 13:13), food (Prov. 23:20-21), and wealth (I Tim. 6:9-11). But each of these is good (Heb. 13:4; Ps. 104:14-15; Job 42:10).
Any unbiased reading of the text, however, clearly shows that verses 29-30 are quite relevant to the instruction in verses 31-15. In verse 20 the writer warns (in the singular!) of the danger of being with immoderate drinkers; such will lead to "poverty" (v.21). Then he warns later about those (plural) who "linger long" (v.29) over wine: such will be led to "woe" (vv.29-30, cf. v. 21).
Then the reader (singular, Heb.) is warned of that type of wine consumption that comes from running with "heavy drinkers." The writer rhetorically asks, "Who has woe?" He answers, "Those who linger long at the wine." Consequently, after such long lingering he warns his reader (singular): "at the last" (i.e., after inordinate long lingering, v. 32) wine bites, stings, and distorts (vv. 32-35). The root of the word "at the last" (Heb., achar, v. 32a) is the very one that appears in "linger long" in v. 30! The individual (singular) to whom he speaks must recognize that, and he must not be drawn to lingering long over wine (cf. Is. 5:11, 22).
It is clear that the Scripture allows a moderate, wise partaking of alcoholic beverages. It is just as evident that the Bible prohibits abusive consumption. There should be no confusion or "hidden truth" regarding the word here. All is very clear: "In all things moderation!" Let me close with three Scripture citations and passages from a few of my favorite verses.
"He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; And wine that maketh glad the heart of man" (Ps. 104:14-15).
"Thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul desires, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household" (Deut. 14:26).
"And the LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all people on this mountain; an banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow, and refined, aged wine" (Is. 25:6).
To futher your insight on drinking I give you the following.

Timothy 5:23
23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
[Note that Timothy is saying have a drink… for the illnesses you have. Infirmities are weaknesses you carry physically and mentally]

Hohn 2:7-10
7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it .
9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
[note again that Jesus made wine and people drank well and commented on the quality of the wine as being good. Having well “drunk” methuo {meth-oo'-o} meaning to be drunken, have well drunk, be made drunk in Hebrew.]
Titus 2:1-6
1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things.
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.

[And lastly from Titus he tells us that as we age to drink in moderation and remain sober, Notice it says not given to much wine not "NO" wine]

We are not all dumb High School party boys. Some study deeper than you might think.
I can thump with the best of them. I just don’t use as wide a brush to paint people as some of you seem to do.

have a good day

[DucknRev]

Sounds like you really know your Bible. I'm glad you are a well-read person. It bothers me that some of your "favorite" verses all have something about drinking wine or other beverage (strong drink), and none of them contain adoration of the Lord or any of the teachings of Paul on stumbling blocks (that's one of the major problems Rob, and I have). None have to do with the saving knowledge of Christ or the atonement. Hope you just overlooked these "favorites". I hope the ones you listed are not your only ones!

No sir, I did not say out right that you aren't a Christian if you drink. I did not say it because that is not true. I did not mean it and didn't mean to imply it. I too, know the Bible fairly well. What you stated is true, but so is the fact that although something may not be wrong as stated in the Word, does not mean that it is okay to do due to the fact that it is a negative witness (statement) as to your maturity in Christ. Paul addresses this attitude in 1 and 2 Corinthians.

I'm sorry you think my statements were "a load of crap". Since you obviously don't share my opinions (which are based on Scripture, because God changed my life and by that He has changed my mind {Romans 21:1-2}; I no longer think about things the same) there is no sense getting so defensive IMO. I'm not trying to "cram" anything down anyone's throat. I'm just complimenting my brother and (hopefully) opening the door for others to come to know the peace avaliable through faith in and obedience to Christ.

There are many who are viewing this topic and I want all of you to know that there is hope in Jesus Christ. He gave His life for you, my freind, and me. When you ask Him to save you(deliver you from the penalty of your sin: Romans 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 10:9-13) He will change your "want to". He did it for me, and I am so confident that He'll do it for you that I am preaching it, publicly. If you will, anyone who wishes to be saved can be. It just takes faith and a desire to fill that void in your life with the thing that needs to be there and that is Jesus.

Duckmen, I want you to think on this statement for awhile. I know you are a smart guy. I don't mean to insult your intelligence at all!! I just want to make sure you know the truth.

New American Standard Bible
Matthew 7:21 (NASB)
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matthew 7:22 (NASB)
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matthew 7:23 (NASB)
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ (emphasis NOT mine, it's in the text, DnR)

The Two Foundations
Matthew 7:24 (NASB)
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matthew 7:25 (NASB)
25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matthew 7:26 (NASB)
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matthew 7:27 (NASB)
27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

[Wingman]

Man, Rev, I wish I could say all that without coming across so negative. Maybe one day I will be able to explain my beliefs without seeming to shove them at people.

Jesus never condemned people of doing wrong, but He loved them instead, and told them to turn from their ways. See the example of when the people brought the woman caught in adultery to Him. He didn't slam her, but loved her.

I slam more than I love.

I hope you are not trying to say that Muslim and Buddhist religions are wrong, especially when trying to help someone.

Chuckle, you are not going to like this, but that's exactly what I'm saying. Muslims and Buddhists will burn in hell unless they turn to Jesus. That's not my opinion, but the Lord's. I just learned this week that Muslims, who worship Allah, are worshipping the "moon god". The moon god is not the same as the Lord. Now how can you base your faith on the god of the moon? My God made the moon, and everything else in the universe. Buddhists believe in reincarnation. I do not. I believe everyone has a spirit, that either goes to heaven or hell when our earthly bodies pass away. We are not reincarnated as cattle, or anything else. We have but one earthly chance to choose where we will spend eternity. God gives us that choice, He doesn't force us to make the decision. Jehova's Witnesses don't believe that Jesus is God. They too will not spend eternity in heaven unless they accept and follow Jesus. The list goes on and on and on. Seemingly wonderful religions all around the world hold no stock in God's eyes.

John 14:6
Jesus said unto them, "For I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

John 3:16-20
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict; Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

There are many more who are more wise and schooled than I. Hop on over to the Refuge, and check out the Christian forums. Not everyone in there is correct in what they say, but you will find alot of useful information. And double check what you hear and what you read with the Bible. Just because people say something is so, doesn't mean it is. Check it in the Bible.

Oh, and Dan, you're calling me Ron again.

Rob

[MSDuckmen]

Sounds like you really know your Bible. I'm glad you are a well-read person. It bothers me that some of your "favorite" verses all have something about drinking wine or other beverage (strong drink), and none of them contain adoration of the Lord or any of the teachings of Paul on stumbling blocks (that's one of the major problems Rob, and I have).

Well DucknRev the subject at hand was about drinking. That is what started this thread to begin with. Naming off scripture that pertained to drinking, is what I was doing. Staying within the subject matter at hand. I felt no need to list others that were of a different subject.

I'm sorry you think my statements were "a load of crap". Since you obviously don't share my opinions (which are based on Scripture, because God changed my life and by that He has changed my mind {Romans 21:1-2}; I no longer think about things the same) there is no sense getting so defensive IMO.

This was your statement>> NOT STATEMENTS << lets stay together on this.

Now Rob, this is why so many are turned off by true Christianity. No one wants to live out convictions if they don't have them; and they are angered, not for the statements, but for the fact that they realize sin in their lives and they are not willing to confess, repent, and ask for strength. As for us, confession is a daily thing.

This I do not consider scripture but your opinion of which you are entitled based on scripture as you interpret it. We already know we are sinners. No living human is without sin. But I took your statement as being within the text of the post and that being those of us that drink being sinners. When in fact the scripture doesnt suggest that. Except in excess. I do tend to get defensive when my beliefs of salvation are being questioned by a man. That is where the Crap part of my post came to play. As for me, confession is also a daily thing. Just that drinking a beer is not part of it and likely will never be unless I start to drink in excess.

I believe there is hope in Christ and thank you for again reminding me. But again you have wavered from the original topic to another. Christ drank so where is your logic.

Although I have great admiration for what you are saying that is not where the orignial subject was headed. It was about drinking.

Thank you for the verses you posted and you should know I think about them and many others daily. I however do not see the relationship of having a beer and the scripture of Matthew 7:21 - 23 (NASB) or Matthew 7:24-27 (NASB) and I have already stated why in my previous post.

Better tomorrow

[MSDuckmen]

Oh, and Dan, you're calling me Ron again.

Yea see I told you I hardly know you. I can't even remember your name. Sorry, I will try to do better.

[Wingman]

Guys, I think we are gonna have to go back to the Greek and Hebrew to find out exactly what Jesus drank. The Greek work oinos (sp?) I think is translated wine, both fermented and unfermented. When translated to English, the one word wine was used.

But, I don't read Greek or Hebrew. I think there is more study to this than meets the eye. I'm not saying that the Bible is wrong, but it has been translated from it's original languages.

Wingman

[alduck]

Back to the original question at hand:

does it really take alcoholic beverages to convince grown men to meet together for conservation?

I am having my DU banquet Saturday night, and there will be alcohol there, and I would go regardless of whether or not alcohol was served. However, since there will be alcohol there, I figure I might have a cold one or two. Does this make me a bad guy? If I were to drink too much, I might spend way too much money, but I know my limits. If there is anyone there that cannot control themselves from drinking, I think a banquet is the least of their concerns.

Good Luck to Everyone this Hunting Season and be Safe. Always use your safety and ALWAYS wear a life jacket.

[dedux]

It has been explained, that only enough grapes were mixed with their drinking water, back then, to only allow the pulp and seeds to ripen and settle out the impurities in their drinking water. Drinking water was not always safe to drink, in those times.

[mossyisland]

I am gonna jump back on the ship one more time. The whole topic was started I believe to say that alchohol was served to loosen up the wallets. If it takes alchohol to loosen up their wallets isn't that coming under the control of the wine, because they wouldn't spend that quanity of money if they weren't under the control of it.

[mudsucker]

I just clicked on this topic for the first time tonight. I was going to say something about the wedding "banquet" at Canna as I first started reading the first few post, but around #47 or so, someone beat me to it.
So how many tickets do Y'all want? Wingman started out with a quote from the ole Mudsucker and I only said it to be neighborly. No disrespect for those that do not drink of the vine was intended. We have plenty of ice tea and H2O or coke/sprite available.
I grew up in the New Orleans area,Catholic even. It did not seem such a big deal to post that there will be beer at the event. I did not mean to offend! SO I MAY BE STUPID........also. But do not judge me. You do not know me.
I hope to start a greenwing event and of course, no beer will be served for it, so Wingman, how about being on my committe for that! Would love to have ya on my team!

[Po Monkey Lounger]

Well, it ain't nothing for me to walk into the aftermath of a bloody gunfight and start shooting dead horses. So, I'll hike up my britches leds and wade into this pile of horse dung as well.

As I am sitting here having a good, frosty mug of beer with my morning cherios, allow me to interupt this little moral judement parade with a few thoughts: "I've good friends in looowww places, where the whiskey flows...". Well, I admit it ----gasp ---- I enjoy a cold beer or two every now and then, as well as a shot of Old Charter on special occassions. But, I do not drink and drive anymore (reformed from my reckless youth); I NEVER drink while hunting or fishing; and usually drink in moderation (we all get a little carried away at times). And, I do not believe that my Lord, God condemns a man for drinking in moderation. I find no support for such a belief in the Bible ---- such beliefs only manifest in the minds of men who desire to control the actions of others to rationalize their own personal convictions formed by their envireonment and life experiences. (Wow, that was deep ).

I'll leave with this parting shot: I a'int drunk, I'm just drinking.