another question for the forum

[cwink]

That summary above does help.. Kinda points back to what I was saying earlier. God can use us to accomplish his will.

[duckhunterdoc]

for straightup I think the reason this dialogue has gone as well as it has as we are all on common ground when it comes to getting to heaven, so maybe we can agree to disagree on certain aspects

for duckhunterdoc Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus introduces the Trinity..."baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit" so to answer your question , yes

in fact nothing I have presented is not based in Scritpure, and while I agree they are doctirnes Predestination is also Scripture based Romans 8:29-30 dont quite see it so cleary in scripture regarding Free Will

and I also agree these are points very difficult to understand, doesnt mean we shouldnt dig into our Bibles and discuss them with each other

and dont single out the Presbyterians on the titheing, that was a cheap shot and truth be told we dont preach you aint getting in because of just what you stated above we admit we cant fully understand Gods will, so we certainly dont make claims about who is and who aint...all we know is what the Bible says and some is and some aint

the doc

................ didn't mean to ruffle your feathers(really i'm sorry)the tithing thing was not even the point-at all..the point was the emphasis and totality you push on the Doctrine of predestination...yet refute Free Will...and your main point,you have ,on rejecting the doctrine is the words "Free Will" , while example of evidence is given again and again....you Did Not show me "Trinity" scripture-only scripture that supports that doctrine...don't you see it is the same thing...? to me to push Predestination to the points you have done seems to imply NO free will...to say God Knows all- inadvance,and this, implies no free will, i would disagree with,and the fact that Presbyterians do not push"don't worry-be happy cause some of you were born "in" and some not, just does not paralell the totality of the doctrine....but i do agree with you that we do not totally understand God's ways...So again No "cheap shot" at tithing Pres. ,really no shot at all on this, trigger was pulled on the Doctrine of predestination.....But i still need to see "Trinity" in the scripture.....as you need to see "FREE WILL"

[duckhunterdoc]

Doc' the Summry does a great job in stating Predesination is for Christians..and that is very comforting and this part i don't think i have issues with--Predesined to be saved because God knows all...but i think your summry you posted said it is not "foreknowledge" so then again i may disagree, one example is "salvation is a door" looking as you come in it says"whosoever will may come" as you enter in and look back it says " you were chosen.. i would say " foreknowlege and i think you would say i had no choice....your summry states"God has not charted out every detail" "not programed robots" but some of you statements are "the God I know Has complete control" black shirt/closet story indicates a charted out "every detail" and we have a RESPONSIBILITY to live acording to God's word" - responsibility indicates a possible irresponsibility therefore a Choice between the 2....so your comments seem to cotradict the thoughts of the summry--is Predestination just salvation or more(really ALL)....how can we disregard the creation story/ Adam-Eve as some one else posted--this does suggest a choice/free will as Temptation would suggest a choice or would it be Tempting? and also several other scriptures that suggest FREE WILL and especially 2peter3:9 (and again TRINITY waiting on that scripture--i know Father, Son,Holy Spirit--but we need TRINITY..if we must have "FREE WILL").............and you have done well with presentations of scriptures that support predesination and i do agree that characteristic is there in the scripture--but i do think it is "foreknowlege" and God knew what we would choose but the Great God of love he is,allows his creation to love him back freely---choice not robots...true choice is to allow for some of us to go to Hell..and yes at the starting of time he knew who would love him and who would not(Foreknowlege)....... so these Doctrins to me are our febile attempt to explain the nature and character and maybe even the thoughts of God..and Law DAwg had an excellent point about" God intend sending some people to hell" Very hard to comprehend a loving God doing that.....Maybe if we approached this from Why? why did God start this, why create us at all?

[tombstone]

I am a sinner saved by Gods grace through faith in Jesus Christ as my needed savior

the doc

much like Paul said, I am the worst among all.

great discussion guys. As far as the guilt from sin, I think that is the Holy Spirit prodding your heart.

Judas was predestined to do what he did. I think God knew his heart would never change and he used his evil to the good of his PERFECT WILL.

[the doctor]

not naive enough to believe all I read on the net but this link reads that the word "Trinity" is never mentioned in the Bible, it does however give IMPLICATIONS in Scriptures, so point well taken

http://www.dtl.org/trinity/study/scriptural.htm

as to the seemingly contradiction...no real answer other than prior to our discussions and my reading it helps me to think/believe "every detail", in fact sometimes I am selfish enough to think that the weather was just for me, or a song on the radio was just for me etc

rom 8:28 says "...all things" so form me that means my black shirt

I still like to believe every detail because of the word Omnipotent used describe God and to the point of robots, not robots but servants

cant find the verse off hand but its there outlining the fact that we will indeed NOT be able to completely understand

and to your last question I beleive the first question in the Shorter Catechism asks "What is mans chief end?" A. Mans chief end is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. so why? A. for His glorification

the doc

[duckhunterdoc]

Good answers-good discussion,I would say were are pretty much on the same page, too bad all chuches can't find as much common ground as there would be less splits..anyway "as you stated" and maybe not as much on the black shirt deal, but excellent answer on the WHY. What i know about the character of God is that i do not see him as NEEDING us to Glorify him nor enjoy him... But a God of love does just that- LOVE--How could he NOT--Free Will is the most complete expression of that love,(except for Jesus)and rejection of this love brings spiritual death...For me (as Law DAwg stated(not that he supports it or not) the concept of pure predestination,presents more of a God that created a world ,and that only part of it he would love--the rest being created to go to Hell.......BTW busy and oot... may not be able to respond till Monday

[Caller1]

Doc, does predestined mean predecided to you?

[Caller1]

Jesus tells us it is impossible to get to Heaven by our own works, only with faith in Him is it possible (Matthew 19:26). And many will not choose Him. “You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way” (Matthew 7:13). We all deserve eternal punishment for our sins, but God's infinite love and grace has allowed us a way out. “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

Clearly there is only one way to receive salvation; to know God and His Son, Jesus (John 17:3). It is not done by works, but by faith (Romans 1:17, 3:28). When we have this faith, we will automatically be obedient to God's laws and become baptized out of love for Him, but not because it is a requirement for salvation. We can receive this gift no matter who we are or what we have done (Romans 3:22). “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).


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