another question for the forum

[the doctor]

again remember the murderer at the cross..."surely you will be with Me in paradise"

and try to wrap your mind around the fact that you sin because you are a sinner, you're not a sinner because you sin

only One man walked the earth and resisited all temptation, but again it does not absolve you of the responsibility to follow Gods word and His commandments

typically I pray for personal requests but ultimatley pray "Thy will be done" so regardless the outcome I am assured that the result is part of His good and perfect plan no matter how hard it may be for me to see it

the doc

[Caller1]

Is there any scripture saying we don't have free will???? The Bible is full of man making choices. Not full of man fulfilling God's already decided plan. Does God have a plan? YES. Do we know how the story ends? Yes. Hey, the doctor, we know how the story ends! Does that mean its our choice? No. He has told us how the story ends. And told us what to do accroding to His plan. Do we do it????????????????????? NO, we screw it up at every turn due to our sin nature.

GOD KNOWS ALL. No debate. Everyone in favor. Okay. THAT DOES NOT PRECLUDE the fact that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is constantly trying to get man to do right. That is all the Bible is about. God has a perfect plan for us. What we need to do is forget our own ideas and seek out His perfect plan.

Notice no answers to the "rock" question. Answer is it doesn't matter. That is a human question based on limits. God has no limits. God never runs out of power. Man is defined by his own limits. We can't define God due to our inability to comprehend!!!

[the doctor]

THAT DOES NOT PRECLUDE the fact that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is constantly trying to get man to do right. That is all the Bible is about.

"trying" would indicate the potential for failure...My God doesnt fail.

and still no references? and yes I have referenced several saying we dont have free will

heres some more light reading for you with references

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/predestination.htm

4) Man's Free Will
Many believe that man, by his free will, by something that resides in him, is completely able to independently accept or reject God. But this belief is not supported in scripture. As I stated above, man's will by nature is sinful. What then will a sinful free will choose? It will choose sin. His free will, then, would never allow Him to reach out to God.
But we must ask, "What is free will?". Generally it is accepted to mean the freedom to choose according to one's desires. This seems true. But someone is only as free as his nature is free. His will is limited to that which is within his nature. The unregenerate can only choose what his nature allows him to choose. Since he is full of sin, not goodness, his choices can only be sinful.
In other words, a person can choose to do only that which his nature allows him to do. He cannot simply will to suddenly vanish into thin air or fly like Superman because he is incapable of such feats; his nature limits him. So too with the nature of fallen man. He is severely limited by what he can and cannot do.
The sinful man:

cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11).
is lawless, rebellious, unholy, and profane (1 Tim. 1:9).
How then can the good desire to want God come out of the unsaved's evil heart? It cannot! How is he able, in his sinful free will, to desire God when his inclinations are always to reject Him? He cannot. How can he, with his blind and sinful will that is deadened, hardened, and enslaved by sin (Rom. 6:20) ever choose God? He cannot! It is impossible. That's why Jesus said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26, NIV).
But some still maintain that God works on a person and slowly teaches and guides him or her into believing. Others say that there is something in a person's free will that enables him to choose God. They maintain that everyone is equally able to accept or reject. But if they are equally free and equally able, then why don't they all equally accept God, or why don't they all equally choose to reject Him? Why are there variations in choice? Are the variations a result of a tendency that God gave them? But God made them that way. Is it because of their environment? But God put them there. Is it because of some physical inclination? But God gave them their bodies. Is it because of their parents' influence? But God gave them their parents.
The fact remains, man is not entirely free; he is sinfully free. The unsaved can act freely, but only within the limits of their sinful nature which cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11), hates God, and is in slavery to sin (Rom. 6:17,20), etc. That is why Jesus said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him..." (John 6:44), and, "No one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father" (John 6:65). These are not the statements one would hope to find if the sinner were so free to choose to accept or reject God.


the doc

[Caller1]

The mantra you keep repeating is great. Okay, I say this: I am a sinner because I
sin. Now, who is right??? Chicken or egg?????? Doesn't matter.

Whatever leads you to Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior is a okay. Thats the bottom line. If you wanna believe in your particular divine election ( talk about pride) then have at it. John 3:17 says God sent Jesus to save the world! Not just Presbyterians. THE WHOLE WORLD! John 3:18 says, " Whoever believes in him is not condemned..." That means anyone who chooses to believe. Rich, poor, black, white,..... IS says that in our Bible!!! It does not say, "anyone whom I have already picked to believe." Does God know what decisions I will make? Yes.

[the doctor]

The mantra you keep repeating is great. Okay, I say this: I am a sinner because I
sin. Now, who is right??? Chicken or egg?????? Doesn't matter.

Whatever leads you to Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior is a okay. Thats the bottom line. If you wanna believe in your particular divine election ( talk about pride) then have at it. John 3:17 says God sent Jesus to save the world! Not just Presbyterians. THE WHOLE WORLD! John 3:18 says, " Whoever believes in him is not condemned..." That means anyone who chooses to believe. Rich, poor, black, white,..... IS says that in our Bible!!! It does not say, "anyone whom I have already picked to believe." Does God know what decisions I will make? Yes.

quite the contrary, it does matter in fact denomintions have split over the facts and to your lst sentence you may want to read more carefully, He has already made His selections

6) God's Sovereign Election

God is sovereign. Sovereignty means that God is supreme in power and authority, that He answers to no one, and that He may do as He pleases for whatever reason He chooses. "Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure'" (Isaiah 46:10); "...to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:28); "...this Man [Jesus], delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross..." (Acts 2:23).
Out of a people of utter sinfulness and inability, God has chosen, by His sovereign grace, to elect some into salvation and not others. Remember, there is nothing in man that merits any favor, blessing, or mercy whatsoever. For there is no favoritism with God (Rom. 2:11). Each and every person is entirely worthy of wrath and incapable of saving himself. That is why God has chosen a people to Himself out of the good pleasure of His heart. Because without His choosing, none would ever come to Him. Therefore, predestination is a loving doctrine: "...In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ..." (Eph. 1:4,5).
He chooses some and ignores others not because of what the person has done, or what is foreknown that he would do, but simply because of God's sovereign choice: "[God] who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim. 1:9); and, "for though the twins had not done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, 'The older will serve the younger.' Just as it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated'" (Rom. 9:11-13; see also, Psalm 11:5).

Sovereignty is why God has mercy on whom He desires and hardens whom He desires: "For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy...So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires" (Rom. 9:15,16,18). This is sovereignty! It is God who is in control.
Some He has elected to salvation, others He has not: "...for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed" (1 Pet. 2:8); And, "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Rom. 9:22-23). It seems quite clear that God prepares some for mercy and not others. That is sovereignty.

the doc

[Caller1]

John 3:17 says God sent Jesus to save the world! This is just after one of the most pertinant versus in the bible.

Like I said, if you are elected and are saved, praise God. If you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and savior and truly believe, praise God. If you think the tree outside your window looks like a the image of Jesus and it leads you to read the Bible and to your salvation, praise God.

" For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds;and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."-Matthew 7:8

[cwink]

Maybe it is both.. You look at the glass and see that it is half full.. Someone else says it is half empty. They are both right. One person may think they have free will and try to make decisions that will please God, other belive they are saved and because of that they do things the please God out of thankfulness or desire to fulfill the plan. We can go round and round on this topic. But I don't think anyone person sees everything exactly the same. Maybe God works with how he designed us. Maybe I am way off base.. But at lease none of yall can prove me wrong.

[StraightUp]

doc has asked for verses stating man has a free will. I don't know of a verse that says "man has a free will". But the implication is there. To me it's so obvious there's no need to say it.

Mt 23.37- Jesus looked over Jerusalem and lamented that the people "would not" allow him to embrace them.

Romans 10.13- "everyone" who calls will be saved.

Colossians 1.19-20-by Christ it pleased the father to reconcile "all" things Himself.

2Peter 3.9- The Lord is not willing that any should perish but desires "all should come to repentance".

Yeah, I beleive in predestination. All who believe are predestined to enter eternal life. Even if I thought this doctrine was legitimate, I would not state it to anyone. As a Christian, I beleive that Biblical principles for society/life are what the world needs to live peacefully and harmoniously. How could the church go about teaching Biblical ethics and then say "oh, by the way, for some of you, even if you keep these teachings, you are predestined to go to hell"??

[the doctor]

first to me implications dont cut it..need clear wording (btw not being defensive here just want to make that clear, I am enjoying discussing these finer points of our beliefs)

but as it relates to Mt 23:37 ...you really think they kept Him from embracing them? meaning He couldnt have done it if He wanted to?

Roman 10:13 ...true but all will not be called Ephesian 1:4

Colossians 1:19-20 Christ did reconcile sins for all but is very clear that all will not admit they need His salvation Ephesian 1:4 again

2 peter 3:9 ...tricky one here because if He truly desires all (and I think He does) then why will all not be saved? honestly cant answer but I do believe He knows which ones will and which ones wont

I think the truth is we dont know Gods perfect will nor can we completely fathom it only trust that it is being done as instructed in Scripture

does say works wont get you there, so yes the blunt truth of it is that if you do all that is right by the Bible and its teaching yet fail to accept Christ as your savior then yes I beleive you are going to hell ephesian 2:1-10...this also makes clear that your salvation is not of yoursleves, only by grace through faith

the doc

[StraightUp]

doc, you want be moved will you? Granted, I don't like to operate in implications and feelings either. You defend your position well. Let me give my final thoughts.

Here's what it boils down to for me--

I can't believe God would send his Church into the world as witnesses to preach and teach the principals/mandates of Scripture (forgive, honesty, share, be kind, be holy, no other gods before me, etc) and then at some point say to the masses in their neighborhood, "oh, by the way, many of you are going to hell, because God has decided not to call you".

Secondly, if I thought I was of the elect and others weren't, I probably would be awfully proud of myself and hard to deal with---I'm weak...

Thirdly, I never recall Jesus turning people away because they weren't chosen. Rather, Jesus seemed to have time for all, even to the chagrin of the 12. This is significant to me because Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead. (I know, I'm implying again)

Finally, I'd rather stand before God and hear Him say, "Boy, you thought too much of the 'good news'! You really worried too much about others. I never intended for everyone to get in on salvation". As opposed to, "Why did you grow so flippant about Joe who lived next door to you for years?"

That's all I got on this

[duckhunterdoc]

Doc- you believe in the Trinity?----scripture please? Free will and other Doctritions are just that-doctrins, our attempt to explain Almighty God--very hard to do from our perspective....I do need to see a few more Presbyterian Ministers Preach" some of you are CHOSEN to go to Heaven some of you are out of luck- we will still take your tithes, but you ain't gett'n in"-------before i buy the Totality of Predestination and totally exclude Free Will

[the doctor]

for straightup I think the reason this dialogue has gone as well as it has as we are all on common ground when it comes to getting to heaven, so maybe we can agree to disagree on certain aspects

for duckhunterdoc Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus introduces the Trinity..."baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit" so to answer your question , yes

in fact nothing I have presented is not based in Scritpure, and while I agree they are doctirnes Predestination is also Scripture based Romans 8:29-30 dont quite see it so cleary in scripture regarding Free Will

and I also agree these are points very difficult to understand, doesnt mean we shouldnt dig into our Bibles and discuss them with each other

and dont single out the Presbyterians on the titheing, that was a cheap shot and truth be told we dont preach you aint getting in because of just what you stated above we admit we cant fully understand Gods will, so we certainly dont make claims about who is and who aint...all we know is what the Bible says and some is and some aint

the doc

[Caller1]

[quote][
2 peter 3:9 ...tricky one here because if He truly desires all (and I think He does) then why will all not be saved? honestly cant answer but I do believe He knows which ones will and which ones wont
/quote]

We all agree that He knows it all already. No doubt. Now a moot point.


John 3:17 says God sent Jesus to save the world! Little attention to this one please. the world means.... the whole world. Not part of the world.


"everyone who asks receives"-- Matthew 7:8 Says that salvation is for all that ask. That's Jesus talking. That is the end of the discussion to me.

[the doctor]

found this summary online and I like it

Predestination is intended to be a teaching of the greatest comfort for Christians - but only for Christians. Not predestination, but "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" is to be preached to the lost. It is most foolish to talk to non-Christians about predestination, for this teaching is not intended for them. Rather, unbelievers should be pointed to "Jesus Christ and Him crucified," to the Gospel that says that God offers reconciliation, forgiveness, and eternal life, to everyone who believes, regardless of their social status, race, sex, or past life (See John 3:16; 2 Corinthians 5:19; 1 John 2:1-2; Galatians 3:27). "He died for all" (2 Co. 5:15) is the message the non-believing world needs to hear.

For Christians, predestination is the doctrine of comfort and hope. I hope this little tract has helped you understand this wonderful truth.

heres the link to all

http://www.orlutheran.com/html/trelect.html

and Caller1 how do explain Romans 9 and if all are to be saved why is there a hell? and explain then Ephesians 1

and all of these

Scripture in Support of only a Few Being Saved:

Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it."
Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen"
Matthew 12:32: "And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come."
Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life"
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
Matthew 10:23 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved"
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Revelation 21:6-8 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

and these

"For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt. 22:14 ESV).

"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short" (Matt. 24:22 ESV).

"And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night" (Luke 18:7 NIV)?

"I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen" (John 13:18a NASB).

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit" (John 15:16a NKJV).

"this man [Christ Jesus] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23a NASB).

"For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified" (Rom. 8:29-30 HCSB).

"though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call" (Rom. 9:11 ESV).

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph. 1:4-5 NKJV).

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" (1 Peter 1:1-2a NASB).

what say ye

the doc

[the doctor]

Frankly guys these posts and this discussion has been as much for me as it wasa for explaining to others what it is we believe.

Hopefully there were some lurkers that didnt post that maybe now have at least a heightened interest in Christianity, regardless of denomination.

the doc