Shooting 'Minutia' .....Stato-/Opto-kinetics?

Anatidae · Postby **Anatidae** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 10:27 am

O.K., Hemingway....I made it back....here we go. I'll quote your initial comment for the benefit of others [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Anatidae-
I concur with the importance of vision...but disagree with percentage of emphasis you are giving it. Other sense that you did not mention are these: Proprioception...this is your body's position in space and Kinesthesia...this is movement through space. These two are, in my view, equally important which, in essence, boils down to reflexive shooting....I do admit that no matter how good these two sense are, if your vision is 'off', you still ain't gonna hit the bird.

This reflexive shooting (ie kinesthesia---swinging-through on a shot) can be learned by practice and repetition.

'Not meaning to "split hairs" with you [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] just giving my .02$<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Postby **GulfCoast** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 10:48 am

I am not sure I understand the question [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

Are we talking about the relative importance of technique vs. visual skills?

Junior P · Postby **Junior P** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 10:51 am

Well damn I'm going to have to go back and dust off my physics books from school. Let me throw in my .02$ worth and quote my dad. "You point a shotgun, you aim a rifle". I think the point is you do see the bead and you know where it is, but you do not focus on it. Let me know what you think. [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]

Junior P · Postby **Junior P** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 12:06 pm

Hey Gulfcoast did he just call us stupid? Just kidding Anatidae don't get ruffled on me now. I drank way too much beer in college to retain all that info. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

duforester · Postby **duforester** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 12:11 pm

Anatidae can come up with some stuff can't he!! LOL

Postby **GulfCoast** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 12:14 pm

Really! I have been thrown outta a lot better joints than this!

My head is pretty upright when I shoot. One of the benefits of a high comb and lack of any neck.

jbeam17 · Postby **jbeam17** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 12:24 pm

GOD!!!! WILL DUCK SEASON EVER GET HERE! [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Anatidae · Postby **Anatidae** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 1:17 pm

Wrong, DD....I'm not advocating that it's 'good technique' to shoot with a tilted head.....quite the opposite, in fact.....go back and read again. I said... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

IF, when your gun is mounted and your head rolls over the stock, slightly.....and so on.

.....pointing-out that we don't perform the functions of everyday life with a tilted head......it ain't 'natural'. Thus, if you look at a crossing target with a 'tilted' head, it won't look 'right', 'casue yo head isn't in the 'normal' position.....consequently, neither are yo eyes and that causes improper visual alignment.......a MISS! [img]images/smiles/icon_mad.gif[/img]

Man, wouldn't ya'll love to have a dollar for every guy that'll be standing in front of the toilet, to try this out, now. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] I could retire! [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] 'Bet you could go to an Ole Miss football game and see guys lined-up on 'the wall' with thier heads tilted one way or the other, this weekend. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Anatidae ]

Anatidae · Postby **Anatidae** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 2:37 pm

No GulfCoast......why don't you start another thread and 'paste' your dissertation about 'why folks shoot behind the target'. Then someone else start another one about 'Gun fit'......and maybe somebody else, one about chokes......until we have a thread for each of the 'specific' problems related to shooting (shotguns only, please).
That way, we can talk about a lot of different stuff without getting so 'jumbled-up' that we forgot what we started talking about. [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

Title each one something like 'Shooting Minutae'--(then the specific topic). I like 'minutia' 'cause it sounds funny....kinda like the word 'nuptials'...ever wonder what it meant when someone said the bride and groom exchanged 'nuptials', before you asked someone what those were? [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]I thought it was something where everybody was supposed to cover their eyes until they got through with whatever they were gonna do. [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] But, I knew it couldn't be REAL bad, or they wouldn't let'em do it in church. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Oh, well......I know what that means, now.
[img]images/smiles/icon_sad.gif[/img]

By the way, minutia is NOT a close cousin to those swamp rats that look sorta-like a beaver. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

Anatidae · Postby **Anatidae** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 3:07 pm

O.K....Now onto 'muscle memory'....I AGREE...another very important component, essential for CONSISTENCY in 'good shooting'. Again Hemingway's quote... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

This practice and repitition I mentioned earlier leads to "muscle memory"....in your examples of golf swing and free throw. So, to me, this is not necessarily a 'vision' problem, but a muscle memory problem. I don't think a missed free throw is b/c of bad visual perception but b/c brain does not tell muscles correctly how far to shoot it. This is why golf swings vary from day to day.....muscle memory which can become reflexive.

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Anatidae ]

Anatidae · Postby **Anatidae** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 3:22 pm

O.K. I'm running outa time, so I'll throw this up for 'grabs'.

Muscle memory is ONLY established by repetitive, coordinated use of all the components involved in shooting. That implies that if you have bad habits, the more you practice using those bad habits, the more ingrained they become in our performance, and consequently become difficult to correct.

Assuming that all parts of your game are solid, when you miss the target (or free-throw) it is because there is a break-down in the signal somewhere between the eyes and the muscles (because the brain can't tell your muscles what to do if your eyes don't FIRST, direct your brain to engage the appropriate REFLEX. Somewhere along the line (and I don't know what percentage of the time this happens), but the majority of mistakes and misses stem from the lack of consistent VISUAL POSITION. Given everything else is 'right', if your head (and/or eyes) is in a position that your muscles haven't reacted to (however slight that might be), you're going to be a little 'off' and in some cases miss the shot, altogether.

I understand what you're saying....I think we're pretty close on this, but I'm not convinced that muscle memory breaks down for some other reason besides incorrect(inconsistent) visual position. I'll think about it some more tonight and see what else I can come-up with. Give me some feed back.....maybe we can solve this question, together.....we're almost THERE! [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] Damn good point, though!

hemingway · Postby **hemingway** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 4:46 pm

Anatidae-
Very well thought out and said.

Your right...i think we are debating the same point with different terminologies. That sounds like an awesomebook that you have and it definitely shows you have put some time into researching this.

The motor functions, "muscle memory"
for golf swings, free throws and perfect swing throughs are central nervous system functions(obviously) which can be trained and RETRAINED. You see this in Stroke patients, Tiger woods re-training his swing, etc. That is where repitition comes in...younger adults, pick this up quicker due to developing chord structures and a whole bunch of other physiological reasons way tooo deep for this discussion. But it is never too late to teach an lod dog new tricks.
You mentioned earlier, way earlier, about vision being 80-90% of something, I cant really remember what you said...and I dont know how to go back and put in quotes like u did. My point is other senses Can And Do take over...ie blind people with exceptional hearing and "perception", deaf people with acute vison, etc

If PETA members and antihunters only knew what we go to for the love of the quarry/sport. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Postby **judge jb** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 5:20 pm

does that mean i cut my cane across the grain or on a bias...

judge jb

goosebruce · Postby **goosebruce** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 8:47 pm

Ya'll clear all dat crap outta yur head or you'll never be able to git a shot off, let alone smack a duck. Mount yur gun, swing and shoot. If they are real close, don't swing. How hard is that? travis

Anatidae · Postby **Anatidae** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 11:04 pm

Hemmingway....Absolutely....they ARE important components of 'good shooting'!

Dr. Martin discusses that in his book, too. I think they are closely related to what your saying, if I interpret that, correctly. He says... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Stato-kinetic reflexes represent the process of semi-circular canals--the ear and hearing. These reflexes sense angular acceleration of the head and the awareness of any induced head, eye and body movements. They serve to restore equilibrium--the ability to maintain balance.

That's what you refer to as 'Proprioception' (your body's position in space), right? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Opto-kinetic reflexes relate to the movement induced by a moving target or moving person. These two very important reflexes are involved in body movements, the moving targets, and function to control balance.

While it's not necessary to understand these reflexes to keep from falling on our face during normal activity, it CAN be helpful when trying to correct problems in shooting. I'm really glad you brought this up.

For those who wonder how this affects your shooting......when you perform the 'normal', everyday routine functions, your head is usually in an upright position. If when your gun is mounted and your head 'rolls over the stock', slightly...your head is 'tilted'. Your eyes are not use to looking at everything on that angle, so your eyes have to send different signals to your brain to compensate the fact that everthing around you is 'different' looking (tilted). [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

To illustrate this, tilt your head to one side or the other and walk around the house (doing what you normally do) for about 30 minutes. Your eyes are in a different position....they're not level.....you become 'clumbsy' and may even miss the 'pot' (more so than usual). Now shake it....is it moving perpen"dick"ular to the floor or on a angle? (O.K., you can quit, now.....Uh, you can STOP, now!.....HEY, STOP THAT, ALREADY!) [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] NOW, look down at your left foot (if your head is tilted to the right). You'll notice that it's slightly 'wet', now. That's cause you shakin' yo 'thang to the left (cause normally, it's in-line with yo nose, which would be , straight up and down......NORMALLY! [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]

Sorry....'got a little carried-away with the example.....but do you see how this 'head-tilt' thang can affect, say...your swing on a crossing target?

Your body movements add to the dynamics of how your head (which houses the eyes) interacts with, not only with 'stationary objects, but with moving objects as well.
Not only do you have a moving target, but if your head or body shifts position, you now have a moving 'object' looking at a moving 'target'. [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] Man, this is gettin' pretty complicated, isn't it? [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

Good points, Hemingway....I'll address your OTHER good point regarding muscle memory, next.

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Anatidae ]

Who is online