GC, Delta Duck, skeet shooters, I need some help!

[Greenhead22]

To me shooting wild game and orange targets are entirely different. I am a much better shooter when wild game is involved. My dad is the same way, a lot of times he can take a box of shells and get a limit of doves, but you then you get him shooting skeets and he is entirely different. But there are a lot of people who shoot orange targets 24-7, then put them in a hunting situation and they can't shoot for anything.

[GulfCoast]

I have been shooting clay targets seriously since the early 90's. Travelled the circuit in the mid-90's all over the Eastern U.S. I know a lot of people who shoot 5K targets a year, many more than me. However, I don't know ANYONE who shoots Sporting Clays regularly that is not at least as good or better at live birds than they are at clays. I darn sure have never met "a lot of people who shoot orange targets 24-7,
then put them in a hunting situation and they can't shoot for anything." Sounds like the same crap you hear that world champion duck callers can "do it on stage, but can't call ducks." Right. Get in a blind with Iceman and see what happens... [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]


Yeah, registered skeet is free throw shooting for robots. But frankly, IMHO, live birds are not NEARLY as hard to hit as good tournament sporting clays targets. You know, that game you shoot in the woods? International trap shooters can make the same arguments, too. That game is hard as snot, too. I have never seen a duck or dove hit 60 mph, turn and roll on edge, you name it. There is nothing erratic that a bird does you can't make a sporting clays target do, except a whole lot faster. And all tournament targets ain't orange, a lot of them are flat black, so I don't wanna hear it. Better try again, GH22. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[hemingway]

Anatidae-
I concur with the importance of vision...but disagree with percentage of emphasis you are giving it. Other senses that you did not mention are these : Proprioception...this is your bodys position in space and Kinesthesia...this is movement through space. These two are, in my view, equally important. Which in essence boils down to reflexive shooting...I do admit that no matter how good these two senses are, if your vision is off you still aint gonna hit the bird.
This reflexive shooting and being able to know where your body parts are in space(ie kinesthesia---swinging through on a shot) can be learned by practice and repititon.

Not meaning to "split hairs" with you [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] just giving my .02$

[Anatidae]

JuniorP.....again, I'm assuming that folks would have already corrected problems with gun fit before attempting to improve their 'visual' game. You don't go deer hunting until you've 'zeroed' your rifle, do you?

I was 'with you', 'til you said something about chokes differing from species to species........that's where I lost you. [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img] I guess the smaller the target, the wider the pattern you need to hit it?

I view choke selection as a function of the range that you anticipate the majority of your targets/quarry will be broken/killed, because choke controls pattern density at various distances. If I am to understand your view..... your choke selection is dictated by the 'size of the target/quarry. Please explain or elaborate.

[img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]Question: You're hunting quail and you may get shots from 15-45yds. What choke do you use in your single-barreled gun? If you stand a chance of jumping a pheasant in the same outing, and have an O/U, would you use 2 different chokes....one for quail and one for pheasant?

At the last cookout, I shot 5-stand with an Improved Modified choke tube. [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]WHAT? [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] Sure, I might have greatly increased my chances at breaking or 'chipping' more targets, but when I'm learning a game (or training for competition) I'm trying to 'center' the target. I get a lot better idea of where the center of my pattern is, if I use the tightest choke that still allows me to 'smoke' a relatively high percentage of the targets with.....(don't want to make it too tough and become frustrated by not hittin' more than you miss). [img]images/smiles/icon_mad.gif[/img]

This, I'm sure, will seem totally unorthodox to most.....but I'm more interested in knowing if my fundamentals are sound and am 'centering' what I'm looking at, than I am about scores......I'll shoot for score when I'm become a legitimate competitor.

I purposely decrease the margin of error by using a tighter choke....the payoff is a squarely 'centered' (visually) target as indicated by the cloud of soot that floats off in the wind. Now, if I'm shooting for money I might use a more open choke. Yeah, I know.....it's a little 'crazy', but that's really the only way I can be certain that I'm doing everthing correctly. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[hemingway]

Anatidae...Continued

Sorry, lost my train of thought for a second.
This Practice and repitition I mentioned earlier leads to "muscle memory"...in your examples golf swing and free throw. So to me this is not necessary a "vision" problem but a muscle memory problem. I don't think a missed free throw is b/c of bad visual perception but b/c brain does not tell muscles correctly how far to shoot it. This is why golf swings vary from day to day...muscle memory which can become reflexive....Again splitting hairs and I have joined in on the aforementioned(by me) minutia.ha [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[Delta Duck]

I have a good example it happened to me last year. I shot some 3300 rounds of registered sporting clay targets and a total of about 7000 rounds year before last.
I had such a smooth mount with the shotgun. When I pulled up to shoot the gun was in the right spot.

The opening day of duck season last year mallards 25 yards I pulled up and shot 3 times at 3 different ducks only the last duck I shot at fell. I said what in the heck is going on. The same thing happened the next time.

I was so use to having a smooth mount with out heavy clothes on I was not bring the butt up far enough. I put another High Vis sight about half way of the barrel to force me to bring the butt up to my shoulder. It was real hard to retrain myself to shoot.

Good luck, listen and do what them fellows are trying to tell you. Hell, I think I might have learned something from all of this.

[Junior P]

No offense taken. I did not realize that you shot with GH22 that much. What my point was that if he wanted to shoot skeet on a level other than novice he needed to go to a hands on coach. For example one that could look at his gun and set the stock up or down depending upon his physical build. Now that I know he shoots with you, you can help him with this. Obviously you know more about skeet shooting than most. I have shot it for many years off and on and do not claim to be anywhere near an expert. Also, your right that skeet shooting is repetitive, measured, etc... The bird always flies from the same position on roughly the same path. Your leads differ depending on which station etc... In hunting the birds differ in size, speed, distance, flight plane, etc... Also your chokes differ from species to species. In dove you may use a improved or modified, duck maybe a modified or full, in skeet hopefully you are using skeet chokes or at least an improved. My point is when you are standing at station three shooting the high house you know basically the flight pattern and where the bird is coming from and you can go ahead and practice your swing and tell yourself how far to lead the bird. When hunting all of those variables such as flight pattern, size of quary, distance, speed, etc.. have to be computed within and instance to make a shot prior to the game getting out of range. If you are used to hunting situations and then you go to a skeet range for the first time (from what I gathered GH22 had not been on one much) everything changes and you are not nearly as consistent shooting. So, don't get down on yourself if you don't do as well on the skeet range as you do in the blind. One other variable I just thought of is on a skeet range you have a group watching one shoot. In a blind you don't think about all those eyes on you unless of course it's a single and your up. The old mind can really screw you up if you allow it. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[Junior P]

Gulfcoast I agree with what you said totally about sporting clays. I have only had the opportunity to shoot it a couple times and it is as close to real hunting as possible. In some situations it is more difficult and really test your shooting abbilities.

Anatidae my point about chokes in hunting versus skeet depends upon what type of skeet you are shooting. "MOST" people get on a skeet range and shoot skeet or improved chokes. Would you agree with that? With skeet chokes your patterns are larger giving you a larger break area. I would say that you are the exception in shooting skeet by changing your tubes in mid shoot. I would be willing to bet that there may only be about 5% of the people that shoot change their tubes. Now in hunting, other than maybe dove and quail people don't generally shoot with skeet tubes. Thus their break(kill) area is tighter. You asked me about the pheasant/quail hunt. It would depend on the hunt. If there would be and equal amount of finds on quail versus pheasant then I would select my chokes by finding a middle ground, lets say modified/modified. If there were more quail I might use improved/modified, or if more pheasant I might shoot modified/full. Totally depends upon the situation you are hunting in. In skeet your variables are always the same. That is my point about choke selection. However as Gulfcoast brought up if you are shooting sporting clays then you can throw this whole damn thing out because every station is different just like hunting. I applaud you for changing tubes and practicing the different shots and trying to perfectly center your shot. If you have the time to do this and practice shooting skeet often then you can get very efficient at it. Most people however do not take the time to practice this much. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Junior P ]

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Junior P ]

[GulfCoast]

I shoot low gun skeet with a light mod or 15 thou. constriction. That is pretty tight compared to most folks. Most "skeet shooters" use a true cylinder or at most .005 constriction ("skeet 1"). The more you shoot, the tighter you will go with your choke, since the "smokeball" breaks give you so much confidence. The trick is to "practice tight, and shoot loose"
if the score counts. I wish I had time to practice more. If I could only get paid to NOT work......


Answering Anat.'s question, with quail AND pheasants I would put in a light mod, since it would cover me out to about 35 yards, shoot 7.5's and I would pass up the longer shots. For just wild pheasants, when I go to SDakota in a couple weeks, I will shoot a light mod, and #5's. The larger shot, loaded to about 1150 fps will tighten up that LMod a little and rip pheasants inside out to about 35 yards. If they are flushing wild, in goes the Light Full (.030), and the dog gets to walk out to the next zip code to pick them up. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[Junior P]

Hey GC where you headed in South Dakota. We are leaving November 30th to hunt around Winner. My personal favorite is an over & under 20 Gauge with modified/full with 3" mag #6. I have hunted Iowa for about the past 10 years but this will be my first venture to South Dakota. Hope your trip goes well. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[Anatidae]

I've tried to limit my discussion of shooting, strictly to the visual game, as it relates to GH22's initial question, to avoid confusion that is bound to be created by an inundation of terms, phylosophies, concepts, and all the OTHER aspects of 'proper' shooting techniques that we can think of. Again, I emphasize I'm not a 'master', and because I'm NOT, I have to be real careful NOT to introduce more information than ANY student could possibly comprehend at one time. My purpose is NOT to impress [img]images/smiles/icon_cool.gif[/img] (or bore) [img]images/smiles/icon_redface.gif[/img] anyone, because eventually (probably, real soon), I'll reach the limits of my knowledge. [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]

In short, it won't help GH22 if we start-out talking about shotgun beads and such (as related to visual awareness), and end-up discussing the type footwear we use, when we shoot.....even though that may affect your performance......it's not relative (at this point) to the immediate concern at hand, which is to SEE the target, correctly.

I'm not scolding anyone, because there have been some really good points submitted during the course of this thread......many of which ARE important considerations regarding better shooting....including proper 'technique', gun fit, chokes and stato- and opto-kinetics. [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]Huh? [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img] All these ARE important components of good shooting and I don't want to discourage such great participation. Your comments are well recieved, noted and appreciated. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

So, in the interest of NOT confusing the 'issue', I'll start another thread on each of the other topics brought-up (at least the ones that I feel I can intelligently address......I'm resolved to the K.I.S.S. principle ie. Keep It Simple, Stupid!) That's about all the capacity I have, to deal with things of this nature. I may regret ever opening my mouth at all, but maybe this'll help pass the time 'til goose season opens. I'm determined GH22's shooting 'woes' can be remedied, depending on his attention span and my patience. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

It IS good to know there is such a wealth of expertice on this sight and am humbled and proud to be in such good company. I appreciate your compliments and willingnes to participate. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Anatidae ]

[Model12]

GC, and Ant. I got a question. I'm a pretty fair shot because I shoot alot. Usually around 200 targets a weekend min. I never see the barrel, just focus on the target. My question is this. I'm right handed, and I kant the gun to the left about 30 degrees. When I mount the gun, I automatically lean it to the left. I never really thought much about it until a buddy asked me why I did it. I told him I didn't know, so I tried to shoot with it level. I went from a 90 plus percent shooter to about 75%. Whats up with that? I guess its just a comfort thing with me leaning it to the "west" any comments?

[GulfCoast]

Junior P: I am going for the week of Nov. 5 to a ranch outside of Kimball, which is about 120 miles west of Souix Falls. All wild birds. It is an annual event for a bunch of my friends.

If you are going in late November, you should for sure be prepared to deal with snow. It snowed 2 feet on us the first day last year, and that was just in the first week of November. It sure is fun to watch those roosters come busting up out of the snow, though!

Hope y'all have a blast!

[GulfCoast]

I dunno Model 12. A pure guess would be that perhaps canting the gun is your subconcious method of getting the cast where you want it? I would think that it would relate to cast or drop, since you don't look at your barrel. I guess the pitch would remain pretty much the same as long as you mount the same way every time. Otherwise, I have no clue. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Are you shooting trap or skeet?

[Junior P]

This is what a board should be like. Everyone getting to voice their opinions and no one jumping on them and telling them how "stupid" or "ignorant" they are. Trust me I have learened alot by listening to you Anatidae & Gulfcoast. It's nice to make a point on here and not have someone tell you how wrong you are and you need to do it their way. In other words thanks for the information and hopefully people have learned a few things. The other thing is thank god Benny is gone!!!
[img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: Junior P ]