GC, Delta Duck, skeet shooters, I need some help!

Postby **Greenhead22** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 1:38 pm

The only thing I know is this: You take the bead off of my barrel and I am lost as a fart in a whirlwind. You say it is impossible to be looking at the target and the bead when shooting, I beg to differ. I am going to shoot two rounds like I said. Then after I shoot you will have to admit that the having the bead and not having it affects me greatly when I shoot. I know of a trio that see the bead and target when shooting, me, my brother, and my dad. And both of them are right eye dominant yet shoot with the left eye closed.

Anatidae · Postby **Anatidae** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 2:10 pm

Boy, you fixin' to piss me off! Read what I said.......
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

You take the bead off my barrel and I'm lost........

What was the First thing I said?....."Put a bead back on the barrel, then" ('means I acknowledge what you said and agree with you). Why do you insist on making THAT an issue?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

You say it is impossible to look at the target and the bead when shooting...

Wrong. that's NOT what I said.....I said "it is physically impossible to focus on both at the same time". There's a big difference in 'looking AT' and 'focusing'. Trust me...I've been thru this visual delima.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I beg to differ

Now, what the HELL does that mean......you're the one askin' for help....but you already made up yo mind that you got a special set of circumstances that is unlike any visual problem experienced by 99% of all the other shooters that aren't satisfied with the way they're shootin'.....yeah right!.....and thanks for the GRATITUDE! All you appear interested in is ARGUING for the sake of argument!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I'm going to shoot two rounds, like I said.

Not until you convince me that you have the ability to listen and apply what I'm trying to say before you start debating something you know nothing about. I don't care if you agree with me or NOT....that ain't the point.......but I am NOT going to waste my time and yo money if you insist on doin' this without hearing a word I'm saying....just ain't gonna do either of us any good.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Then after I shoot, you'll have to admit.......

Hell, I've already admitted that and furthermore, the reason you can't shoot without a bead on yo gun is because you have become so dependant on it that you're lost without one. That's because you've put too much emphasis on the bead and not enough on the target. The more you shoot (correctly), the less concious you'll become of the bead because if you're focusing on the target (which is the whole point), the bead becomes secondary.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

.....having the bead and not having the bead affects me

Hell, I already acknowledged that in the FIRST sentence of my previous post....but you MISSED that.....TWICE! It affects millions of shooters that think you're supposed to 'aim' a shotgun. You AIM a rifle (open sights)....you POINT a shotgun (unless you're lining-up on a stationary target such as a turkey's eyeball). You HAVE to understand that concept.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I know three shooters.......

Well, I suppose it could be a genetically transmitted, congenital defect only found in your bllodline, but I doubt that....it's a common problem among shooters who reach a certain level of proficiency but can't quite get over the 'hump' to becoming a better wingshot. Just trust me on this....ask GC or Delta Duck about what I've said. They've been thru this. The difference between a 99 and a 100 straight in trap singles is about 5 feet or 1/4 of a second. That translates to 'patience'.

Now, I'm gonna give you 1 more try.......don't say another word (and I won't either.....'cause it ain't workin').....I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and realize the fact that I'm just as 'hard-headed' as you are, and might not be listening, myself. We'll find out and maybe straighten some things out on Thursday.

Yeah, I edited this post after taking a half a bottle of 'Midol' and giving it a chance to take affect. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] 'Hope I wasn't too harsh, the first time around.....just got a little frustrated trying to communicate....'not your fault.

[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: Anatidae ]

Postby **GulfCoast** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 7:11 pm

A good instructor would have charged you about $1,200 to come to starkville and tell you all the same stuff Anat and others have said. Listen to Anat for a change, and shut yer yapper [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Just like we told you at the range, I don't have to LOOK at the end of my finger to point at booger's hat, but I DO HAVE TO LOOK WHERE THE HAT IS. Your mind knows where your finger is, and it knows where your barrel is, so ferget it and WATCH THE TARGET. Sheesh, kids these days [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

dos gris · Postby **dos gris** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 7:09 am

Anybody else wonder what goes on in GH22's head? [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

Dixie Boy · Postby **Dixie Boy** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 7:51 am

This guy can't be for real. And some people wonder why Mississippi State is always spoken poorly about!!!! You do the math! [img]images/smiles/icon_redface.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_redface.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_redface.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Let's hear it for the Rebels!!!!

Postby **Greenhead22** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 12:59 pm

Yes, I realize that the majority of shooters do not see the bead, but I do, and shoot pretty good when seeing it. I am addicted to the bead, it's like a habit, been doing it ever since I started shooting. It's like my dad smoking 4 packs/day for over 30 yrs. now, is he going to change? It's like trying to get me to change to Milwaukee Beast from Bud Light, it isn't gonna happen. Will I stop using the bead, probably not. When I am swing shooting, whether it be wild game or orange birds, when I pull the trigger I see the target and the bead. As a one-eyed shooter you cannot help but see the bead. And with my left eye dominance I doubt I will be able to shoot with both eyes open, which I would like to do.

Junior P · Postby **Junior P** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 2:24 pm

Hey GC and Ant. would you say that most peoples problem when shooting skeet is that they look at the bead or that their heel drop is wrong for them. I like a gun with a huge drop and can tell a total difference when shooting a gun set up two different ways. Also GH22, skeet and hunting are quite different. Hunting (shooting) is reflexes, Skeet (shooting) is timing and practice and lead distances. I know quite a few people who are damn good shots at ducks but put them on a skeet range and they can't hit crap. [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]

Anatidae · Postby **Anatidae** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 2:54 pm

Sure you can.......just calm down, buddy....I understand what you are saying. There's a difference between 'seeing' and 'centering'. Yes, you ARE going to see/be aware of your bead, no matter WHAT.....it's there, you're looking in the general direction, therefore you can't miss seeing it. O.K., think about what I'm fixin to tell you. If you don't understand, I'll explain, Thursday.....on the range.

Eyesight is what you 'see'......Vision is what you do with what you see. EXAMPLE: Let's say your on the way back to Starkville and you wonder how much further it is. Your eyes scan the horizon and the side of the road until you spot that green sign. You notice there are two cities on it. At this point you're not real sure what those two cities are but you notice that one has more letters
in it (which you suspect is Starkville). So your focus 'narrows' from the whole sign to the longer line of letters. As you get closer, you confirm that it does say Starkville (without actually looking at each letter) and your focus 'narrows' from there to the numbers at the right. When you get close enough to see the numbers and you establish how far it is to your destination, your eyes go back to the road.

In the meantime, you passed 8 oncoming cars and some construction signs [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]......and somehow, while your primary 'focus' was on the sign, you managed to stay in your lane. Can you tell me how many, what color or make those vehicles were.....and how many of them were pick-ups? Can you be certain of what the construction signs said. Can you even tell me the name of the other town that appeared with 'Starkville'......or how many miles it was, to THAT town? Maybe you could answer some of those 'Yes', but it's very unlikely. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

My point is....there are two 'zones' of visual awareness.....primary and secondary.
When you 'narrow' your focus on an object, that object becomes your primary focus.....everything else is 'secondary'. EXAMPLE: When you spotted the road sign, your primary focus shifted from a wide area to that sign......the road, other vehicles, virtually everything else became secondary. You were aware they were there, but they were 'fuzzy' in relation to the sign. Once you recognized the sign, your focus further 'narrowed' to read the names of the towns (as a line of letters). You didn't actually see all the letters, did you? NO! As soon as you saw 'Starkville', your focus 'narrowed' again and so on.

This 'narrowing' of your focus is what is known as 'centering', and requires a higher type of concentration to focus on the 'smallest' portion of any object......like the dot on the 'i' in the word, 'Starkville' (which, by the way, is a visual exercise I do during trapshooting season to develop the muscles that control that function of the eyes).

Now, here's how the inability to distiguish between foreground and background or primary and secondary ojbects creates problems with alignment. Extend your arm and point your finger at an object across the room (say, a light switch or door knob). Your eyes should be 'focused' or 'centered' on that object. Now, listen carefully. WITHOUT CHANGING THE FOCUS FROM THAT OBJECT, increase your awareness of your finger (slightly out of focus or 'fuzzy') in the foreground. If you do this correctly, you will actually notice that there are two images of your finger. NOW, do the same thing, but this time, SHIFT your focus from the distant object and focus on your fingertip. AGAIN, WITHOUT CHANGING THE FOCUS FROM YOUR FINGER, increase your awareness of the object in the background. Again, if you do this correctly, there will be two images (slightly out of focus) of that object.....even though there's only one object. [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] Ya see, this is what happens when you look back at the bead.....your brain doesn't know which of the double images of the target your eyes are 'looking at in the distance (background or secondary zone). Because your brain can't process this confusion, your chances of hitting the target is slim and invariably leads to other problems. This confusion is called physiological diplopia [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img], in case you're wondering if I just made all this up.

O.K.......you still with me? I'm explaining this on the board, here, not because I hope to impress everyone....but, in hopes that other folks who are not satisfied with their shooting, might understand WHY they can't shoot better than they do. Before I understood what part 'vision' plays in shooting, I averaged a meager 88% at trap singles. Within 6 mos after learning how to use my eyes/'vision', I averaged 97.7% on 1000 registerd trap singles running my first 100 straight and a couple 99's. I shot 94.2% from my handicap yardage whereas before, I shot an embarrasing 85% from the 20yd line. It really improved my shooting (not just target shooting, but hunting as well) and I hope it'll improve YOURS, too.

The best athletes are those that understand vision and have learned to use it correctly.
When you strike a golf ball or baseball, if you just look in the general direction of the ball, chances are you won't strike it, squarely, which results in a 'shank' or a pop-up, or worse, yet....you won't make ANY kind of contact. But if you focus your vision on the smallest area of the ball (the point of impact with the club or bat), you'll have a better drive, having 'hit' what you're 'looking at'.....that small spot on the ball. If your eyes shift from that spot at all during your swing, you probably won't strike the ball squarely......same thing applies to target shooting. It's not enough to 'see' the target.....if you want to 'break' it, you MUST 'focus' on the leading edge of it. That takes practice.....and you have to actually 'train' the eyes to do it. That takes a different kind of concentration than you've been use to, 'til now. It CAN be done, but don't expect it to happen overnight.

For those who think this thread is WAY too long.....why the hell did you read it, then? [img]images/smiles/icon_sad.gif[/img] Duh, I dunno. [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: Anatidae ]

baldduck · Postby **baldduck** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 3:06 pm

GH22, I was watching Buck Gardner on Take'm 3 and he is left eye dominate and he puts some chap stick on his glasses to keep him from looking with his left eye. Just thought I would let you know that's what he does. After reading yalls post's I thought about it and I never use my bead unless I'm taking care of a cripple and then I usually miss, just can't seem to hit anything on the water sitting still. Good Luck with your shooting. It's hard to change but usually it will work out better in the long run. baldduck

Anatidae · Postby **Anatidae** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:05 pm

JuniorP....I hope GC and others will offer some advice, too. But I can't say what 'most' folks' problems are when it comes to shooting. True, they can be blessed with 'multiple' problems, including improper gun fit. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

Everybody's physical structure is different. Some have long necks (and need more drop), some have NO necks, the distance between the eyes is different, some have high cheek-bones, some have large heads, some have small. So your comment regarding drop is not one that can be generally applied to all shooters. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Let's try to address one problem at a time and use GH22 as the subject. I can only deal with his shooting 'cause we shoot together and I can see what he's doing wrong when it happens (if I'm lucky). We could talk about what we think a shooter's problem is, until we're blue in the face [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img], but I can't tell what's really happening until I see him actually shoot.....and then, it's not guaranteed by any stretch. I'm not a 'coach'.....'just a shooter who has benefited from understanding the importance of the visual game in ANY sport....not just shooting.

My 'trap' gun
looks like it has a prosthetic device on the buttstock and is (as you say) 'set-up' different than any other gun I shoot. I have a high cheek-bone and a long neck, so most factory guns don't fit me. In some respects I have to adapt to the gun. The barrel and bead just aid in determining whether a gun 'fits' you, or not. The 'visual' game and awareness is the same no matter how your gun is 'set-up.

Now, I will admit there is a difference between hunting and target shooting.......target shooting has been discribed as more regimented or pre-programmed, measured, repetitive or mechanical (to use a few terms). Hunting is more 'spontaneous' and unpredictable (predominantly because of the absense of 'known' boundaries/limits, target speeds and direction. 5-stand bridges the gap between the two. HOWEVER, ALL shooting uses the same basic tools.....eyes, hands and feet. You can't learn to apply proper visual techniques with a gun that DON'T FIT, so for now, let's don't cloud the issue.

It's ALL reflexes, my friend, but realize that if you close your eyes, you have NO reflexes, or have NO way of reacting to visual stimuli.......the eye signals the brain to deliver the correct amount of stimulation to the muscles that control the movement of the gun. That's what reflexes IS ......the reaction to VISUAL STIMULI. You 'hit' a target more squarely when your eyes see it clearly, which means focused on the smallest portion of that target (like the duck's eyeball or bill or white ring around the greenhead's neck). Walk around the room with one eye closed (or covered) for 1 hour, and tell me how you function. Then tell me how clumsy you are when you remove the covering or open the eye again.

Again, not ALL your comments are entirely wrong....just inaccurate and at this point, could be extremely confusing to some. You know a little bit about some aspects of shooting but obviously not enough to be telling anyone else how to remedy their problems (particularly someone that you've never seen shoot....like GH22). I mean no offense and am not trying to be harsh or demeaning....I just don't know how to say it any other way.....nice, that is. I'm sure your intentions were good.....mine are too. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: Anatidae ]

hemingway · Postby **hemingway** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:42 pm

This minutia and overanalization is killing me...Obviously Anat. et al have vast experience at the shooting sports,but for a duck hunter "too much analysis leads to paralysis". Pick the damn gun up and shoot... let your instincts take over. If you can't hit a big ol greenhead 30 yds away cupped in your dekes, something aint right...If you hunting right you can almost CLOSE BOTH EYES and kill 'em.

gwall · Postby **gwall** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 5:22 pm

i for one am impressed with this info by ant. - i feel like i am better than the average shooter but am far from being satisfied - i too am left eye dominate, shoot off my left shoulder and close my right eye. this info is opening my eyes(excuse the expression) to maybe something that will improve my shooting even more.i cannot wait to go dove hunting this weekend or to the skeet range to give some of this stuff a try, i don't care if it does screw me up temporarily - i can always go back to the old way - i apreciate the info ant.i am not always shooting at a cupped GH at 30 yards away - i probably dove hunt as much as i duck hunt which will test your skills a tad bit more.

[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: gwall ]

Postby **GulfCoast** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 8:42 pm

The average guy tends to miss over and behind. He missed over because he has a "pivot" in his mount. In other words, he starts to bring up the stock with his right hand to the shoulder BEFORE he moves his left hand, which causes the gun to pivot upwards in the left hand, which acts as a fulcrum. The trick to get away from the pivot-o-doom is to practice moving both hands TOGETHER by putting a penny on the rib, then tucking the gun under your shoulder so that you have to push OUT with the left hand before you come UP with your right hand, and then they will tend to come up togather without knocking off the penny. You practice it, you will be able to get way into your swing before the penny comes off. Until you get a repeatable "one piece mount" it is hard not to shoot over targets. As DD says, you just gotta shoot a lot of targets and work it out.

The average guy also tends to miss behind because he takes his eye off the target and looks at his barrel. This causes him to slow or totally stop the swing. Try this, have someone throw a basketball in the air and follow it with your finger, LOOKING ONLY AT THE BALL. Your finger will stick to it like glue. Have them throw it up again, an then as you track it, look hard at your finger. What happened? Your finger slowed down or stopped and the ball fell away from it, didn't it? Tell the truth! It will happen 999 times out of a thousand. That is why it is the KISS OF DEATH to flick your eyes (focus) back and forth between your target and your barrel to see "if you got enough lead."

Anat is 100% right about your "narrow focus" vs. your "wide focus" (my terms). Go put on a baseball cap. When you wear it, you don't stare at the bill. You don't hardly notice the bill unless you look for it. It is still there in your peripheral vision sticking out there, you are vaguely aware of it, but not staring at it. Your gun barrel must be the same way. Yeah, you can tell it is sticking out there, but you dang sure should never NOTICE IT, or be LOOKING AT IT. If you did, you just missed, based on the finger/basketball excercise.

It is so important to look only at the target that you have to trick yourself to look for the dimples or ridges on the target, the line where the black meets the orange, or the very nose, so you will stay visually locked on the target. With ducks, I make myself look for the ring on the neck, the bill, or the eye for the same reason. If you are looking "around the bird" instead of AT the bird, you will shoot somewhere "around the bird" instead of BUSTING HIS booty.

Shooters who shoot a lot of clays, in my experience, tend to miss in front of close targets, or over trap targets, from trying to "jump them" with reflexes only, rather than reflexes plus good technique. My own personal demon is High 2 for this reason. I have some weird need to shoot in front of it.

I shoot almost NO DROP, cause I have no neck [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] I think it is better to have less drop, and have a gun that shoots a little high, than have a lot of drop and tend to pick your head up to see the target.

GH22, Anat is a fine shooter, and is trying like hell to help you. Listen to him. Listen to DeltaDuck, too. DDuck can shoot lights friggin out.

Thanks for reading all this, if it did not boor you all to tears.

[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: GulfCoast ]

Anatidae · Postby **Anatidae** » Wed Oct 17, 2001 10:13 am

Hemingway.....there's alot of truth to what you said about pickin' the gun up and just shootin'. And I also acknowledge your point about 'analysis' and thinking too much. But for some folks, it just ain't that easy because they are obviously missing some VITAL component of the shooting/hitting equation, whether it be improper gun fit, or whatever. Most folks that WANT to improve, CAN'T because they don't know how to use their vision......fortunately, YOU HAVE. That's GREAT....I'm happy for you! [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

80%-90% of what we react to comes from visual stimuli.....the rest (10-20%) comes from the other senses.....smell, taste, touch and hearing.

I don't take offense at your response and am not taking issue with what you said.....just emphasizing what a huge role our vision plays in completing any act.

If anyone wonders how I learned all this stuff, it is contained in a book by Dr. Wayne E. Martin, O.D. (what's O.D. mean, Dr. Jeff?), entitled "An Insight To Sports" (featuring trapshooting and golf). It's NOT a book you read like a novel......it's a GREAT reference guide to understanding the 'visual' aspect of performance. There's a great quote in the book that says a lot.... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

'Of all the movement skills required in sports competition, vision is the last to be fully developed and the first to break down in performance'

The missed freethrow, the fowl-tipped curve ball, the shooters flinch and missed target, the 'shanked' golf drive....all are a result of incorrect visual position (how and where we look at things).

One of the reasons 'new-comers' to skeet have trouble hitting clay targets is 'cause they are more concerned about where the target is coming from than where it's going.

One reason 5-stand shooters typically have trouble with trap-like targets (rising, goin' away) is because everything we do in our daily routine requires the act of looking down and in (below eye level and towards us). Our eyes get very little practice moving up and out (rising and going away), therefore you have to develop the muscles of the eyes that perform the necessary movements within the eye, to 'center' on objects of that flight. So you have to shoot a lot of trap OR do exercises to improve your eyes' ability to follow a target that decreases in size and appears above our 'normal' range of motion (visual motion).....above eye level.

The example I used about lockin-in on the 'dot' of the 'i' in 'Starkville' as you approach a road sign, helps you 'center' incoming targets. To see an out-going 'dot', you'd have to look in your rear-view mirror as you pass a sign, facing the opposite direction of traffic (on a two-lane road). Don't try this with other cars around, because you'll find yourself IN that line of on-coming cars, if you're not careful! Again, please don't do this if you have trouble staying on the road. I'm not advocating that this is something you should actually practice......it's just an example. ....I don't want to be responsible for someone getting injured. [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]

Thanks for your input, Hemingway....and thanks to those who had kind words. Good info, GC. This stuff is no secret...this information is available to anyone. Check your local library or order 'Insight to Sports' from 'Shotgun Sports' magazine. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Postby **GulfCoast** » Wed Oct 17, 2001 10:39 am

Dan Carlisle's book "Taking more birds" goes into the importance of vision and eye position in some detail.

Carlisle's main principle is that for every target, there is a specific spot, which varies among different individuals, where your eye can physically best focus on it, and the target is percieved as "getting fat" or "slowing down" briefly. Other sports call this "the zone." This is the spot where you want to shoot the target, and you set up accordingly. Carlisle calls this "shooting in the visual event". I call it getting a "hard focus." It works in hunting, too. You can make anything "get fat" if you focus on it hard enough.

The eye is a muscle though, and has to be trained to do this without fatigue for a long tournament round. Much easier to do in hunting with a mere 6 bird limit. Everyone CAN do it, though. Look for the eye, feather detail, etx. REALLY LOOK FOR IT, AND NEVER LOOK AT YOUR BARREL. You will be very pleased at the results.

Who is online