The great spinner debate continues......

[cwink]

This is a great topic and I fully support the outlawing of spinning wing decoys. They are very lethal in Canada and the Northern States amongst juvy birds. But as it has been stated several times, it has to be taken care of in the big picture, total elimination and not just a few scattered states.

Cwink, you are right to.

And Cwink , I think you make some very good points , it's not only the laws that need changing , it's the mind set of today's hunter that needs changing as well .

Thanks.. I would back the ban, just because I think it is easier to change the law than to change the hearts and minds of the hunters..

By George, I think he's got it! LOL

I got it a long time ago.. I just wish I didn't have to..


MSDUCKMAN your right, you have got to manage your herd.. And taking does is a HUGE part of that.. I left a good camp because no one would shoot enough does. They wanted the horns.. Well after a few years of this, you no longer saw any horns. There were so many does, that the bucks didn't have to move. But I think if you take does, and let the little bucks walk you can grow some nice sized bucks. Which is a win win for everyone. Meat hunters, and Wall Hangers hunters.

People bash me becuase I came from Tx and hunted over corn feeders, and that is fine. But when you sit in a stand and have 25 deer with in 100 yards of you, you can be an extremely effective deer heard manager, because you can be selective in what you take.

Many people take a deer simply because they see it and are not sure they will see another one. I think (or at least hope) that as more people see more and more game they will use more descretion when decining to pull the trigger and become better "managers" of the game we seek. Maybe it is being over optimistic.. But I have always been the a "The Glass is Overflowing" type of guy. .

[MSDuckmen]

I guess I should go ahead and make a confession to you guys. From reading on this board I know that I am a topwater. I came from a family that thought duck hunting was stupid. First duck I ever killed I was 9 years old, squirrel hunting and two ducks got up off the creek. I shot and somehow killed this really pretty bird with lots of colors. My grandpa told me them thangs aint no good to eat. In high shcool I though duck hunting was sitting on a bucket next to the pond right before dark and shooting a couple boxes of shells then tryin to scoop ducks out of the small pond with a long dip net and a john boat. I have only really started Hunting them in the past three years and I can say this as an outsider. This is the most unfriendly hunting sport there is. Most duck hunters do not want new people in the sport. Not willing to help new people. Don't even want to be seen with somebody new. They would rather sit back and make stabs at some guy tryin to learn a new sport. In thirty years I do not think many people will be worried about consevation, except you great old timers who are Duck hunting Gods in your own eyes.

The my granddaddy didn't use them argument does not hold water to me. You purist claiming this please send me the keys to your 4-wheelers, your fancy decoys, your super insulated waders, and for those of you who deer hunt I would like your climbing stands, fancy new scopes, trail cameras and all the other gadgets.

How about instead of alienating people on the internet you invite them on a hunt and show them really how to do it. I for one am gonna keep hunting and making friends cause thats what it is about for me. I can give proof it aint about killing ducks. Sorry for the long post

Sincerly,
Topwater of the Year

Well have something to talk about around the fire this season. Just by your comments I can tell you volumes of why and how it got to what it is today. Duck hunting took a turn many years ago and it all started with the increase of bird limits from 3 to 5. The true downfall was the commercial interest that changed the face of that heritage.

Chances are that I'm one of those purist you refer to. The thing to remember is what is it about people that are labeled with that name that made them that way. Everyone was a rookie at one time. It was and still is today the people's moral, ethical, and compassion that was taught to them that fuels their beliefs. after all we are a product of our environment.

Good post I'll see you at camp.

[chopper30]

Dan, I don't know if I'm following. I think we're saying the same things. I was saying people that don't give a crap about horns are going to shoot the first legal buck they see no matter how many deer they see, because that doesn't matter to them. And other people will shoot does for meat and not shoot a buck unless it's mature. That's their choice. Like wise people that shoot hens care about killing, if it wasn't about numbers they'd be perfectly happy with a hunt no matter how many they killed as long as it was enjoyable. Therefore a spinner won't ever be used as a management tool for the simple reasons of the mindsets of the people hunting over them.

[MSDuckmen]

Dan, I don't know if I'm following. I think we're saying the same things. I was saying people that don't give a crap about horns are going to shoot the first legal buck they see no matter how many deer they see, because that doesn't matter to them. And other people will shoot does for meat and not shoot a buck unless it's mature. That's their choice. Like wise people that shoot hens care about killing, if it wasn't about numbers they'd be perfectly happy with a hunt no matter how many they killed as long as it was enjoyable. Therefore a spinner won't ever be used as a management tool for the simple reasons of the mindsets of the people hunting over them.

Yes Pal we were talking about the same thing. I understood what you were saying I just used a broader brush.

[70 sprig]

This thread is finally heading the way that I hoped t would .

Aceinthehole , I assure that I wasn't pickin on anyone when I stated the things that I have throughout this thread , I simply wanted people to step back and look at what is being done to the sport that we care dearly about .

Every hunter has to start somewhere , yes , I happened to start early on , and I do believe in doing things the way that I learned them . Yet I may not be any better duck hunter than you are , AND THAT'S OK .
That is exactly what I'm trying to convey here , this is not a competition , I don't care if you or anyone else kills more ducks than I do . But with the AID of these things we are fixin to put ourselves outta bidness .....

Your kid's , my kids , or anyone elses kids don't stand a chance of ever getting the opportunity of seeing the kind of duck hunt that I witnessed when I was a little boy unless we do something about this .......That's the bottom line .

PS. I'd take you on a hunt anytime you get ready

[Locked Up]

I can't say how many of you I agree with....It is to many quotes and paste to do so here I go with the way I feel about this whole subject....I think it is great that so many of us "sportsmen" care about what is happening, we all know that in some form this is affecting the waterfowl populations. 15 years ago, when I was 16 years old I began duck hunting. I grew up my whole life deer hunting with my dad, brother, uncles and cousins. It only took me seeing some woodducks on a roost pond 15 years ago to change my life as far as hunting goes forever.....I fell in love with everything there is about waterfowling.....Since then, I have converted my dad and brother and now all we do is duck hunt.....I cheerish every day we do, and we are fortunate that we get to hunt alot together during the season on some really great hunts. But the killing of limits is not what it is about to me. This was taught to me way before I ever started duck hunting. It is the sight of and being in nature, being close to my father and brother while hunting, and yes the harvest is part of it to....but this is what worries the crap out me....So many people don't know what prolonged gratification is....They want to kill and kill alot without any concern of what it is doing for the future of this great sport....they never think about next year or 5 years or 30 years from now....They want limits on top of limits NOW and some don't stop there....I have known of people to kill as many ducks as they possibly can just because they are making up for lost time...They deserve to be shot in the ass, just my opinion.......
This brings me to the whole SPINNER issue.....I have read as much literature as most of you about this, and from knowlege 1st hand of people who hunt in the Dakota's and the literature published you can see that without a doubt that this act is killing not hundreds or thousands, BUT HUNDRED(s) OF THOUSANDS extra(meaning pre-electronic spinners) migrating waterfowl that will never make the flight down the flyway.....It burns my booty to think that Big business, corrupt government, and self indulgent bastu!rds are allowing this to happen. How can any waterfowl research organization allow this to keep happening? I feel that behind the loses of CRP in the PPR and native grasslands and Predator to Hen Mortality that this single act is affecting population numbers. I am not perfect and never will be....only 1 person ever accomplish that....but I do give as much money as I can to Delta and Ducks Unlimited, support their projects because I think they both are good for each other and they take different approaches, I put up hen houses for woodies and do my best to be a good steward to the land and even buy extra stamps to try and send money where it is needed......I don't break game laws and don't have much tolerence for those who do.....I am just like most of you, I want to see my kids enjoy the outdoors as much as I do.....I don't want to lose this way of life and heritage that for so many years has had the company of so many great people like the grandfathers and great grandfathers.....I don't want to ever have the realization of not being in the timber or pits with my family and friends old and new....
I would be willing to give up my 6 duck limit for whatever and never let up if that is what would save the populations. I would hunt no matter what because I feel that the only ones that would get out of the sport if that happened are the ones that are the problem anyway......Not the hunters or people who care about the prolonged future of waterfowl and their well being but the KILLERS....

[missed mallards]

Seriously, we all acknowledge we have a problem.

Are spinners single handedly decreasing the population? If so, by how much?
Also, who will fund the study?
Who will do the study?
What are the economical impacts on removing spinners?
How can we get funding to keep our PPR flooded?
How can we get funding to increase predator control?
Who can we get to do it effectively?
How can we get them to pass a 30 day 3 duck limit?
What are the economical impacts on decreasing the days? Ammunition, clothes, etc are depending on days in the field to sell their gear. That also decreases Jobs.
Who will honestly answer the surveys about how their mojos impact their hunts
How will we increase funding for law enforcement, to insure mojo’s aren’t being used?
How will we get 3.5” shells banned? If you think about it, how many ducks are shot further away than should be b/c Joe blow had that extra “power” and weren’t immediately harvested?
Who will pay off the politicians to do what is best for the waterfowl, beside their pockets?

I guess I need to stop now, got to head out of town, but there are several things that are contributing to the decrease in waterfowl. Lots of variable, lots of money, and lastly lots of things to consider.

Ya’ll have a safe weekend!!

[Locked Up]

These are the questions that alot of people ask. Me to. But this is what figure. This is in no way intened to be sarcastic Missed. I think about the same things.
Seriously, we all acknowledge we have a problem.

Are spinners single handedly decreasing the population? If so, by how much?
Yes, the data is a little hard to read
Also, who will fund the study?
Hopefully organizations such as DW,DU and other state Org
Who will do the study?
Same as above
What are the economical impacts on removing spinners?
Who cares if it is and deamed to be a critical concern to waterfowl
How can we get funding to keep our PPR flooded?
Buying Fed stamps is a small way to send money to the PPR. Other ways are to support DW, DU and other orginazations that get federal matching to buy,conserve and restore such. As for keeping them flooded pray for rain and these organizations have to be able to match market CRP and keep the farmers in the PPR from draining, leveling, tilling the native grasses. That takes funding over just what dues to join these orgs are. Sodsaver, Wetland Act, CRP, WRP, ALUS all need support
How can we get funding to increase predator control?
Through private donations. I know every year DW sends me a card wanting to know if I still want to help fund a predator controled tract or support the building of hen houses, etc....etc..
Who can we get to do it effectively?
I think DW has done a heck of a job with what they are doing and the research info they release
How can we get them to pass a 30 day 3 duck limit?
I am not sure about this. I think either things would have to get really bad before they would consider this. I don't ever think it would go to a consensous (sp) amongst hunters. I understand that you have to keep hunters involved and a 60 days season is much more lucritive than a 30. And since we need hunters to get funding (more hunters more money to save habitat) it's hard to argue with a 60 days season.
What are the economical impacts on decreasing the days? Ammunition, clothes, etc are depending on days in the field to sell their gear. That also decreases Jobs.
Well the sales would go down but over time say 30 years of selling Steel Shot you would ultimately make the same. What I am saying is ammo, clothes and everything else that goes with waterfowling will not have a place without ducks.
Who will honestly answer the surveys about how their mojos impact their hunts
I can't answer that
How will we increase funding for law enforcement, to insure mojo’s aren’t being used?
Taxes through licences and I am sure others ways. Not just for mojo's but we need more law enforcement anyway. If your not doing anything wrong they have always been very helpful to me.
How will we get 3.5” shells banned? If you think about it, how many ducks are shot further away than should be b/c Joe blow had that extra “power” and weren’t immediately harvested?

Who will pay off the politicians to do what is best for the waterfowl, beside their pockets?
I don't know, we shouldn't have to pay someone off to do the right thing when it is documented science, but this is a far cry from a perfect world
I guess I need to stop now, got to head out of town, but there are several things that are contributing to the decrease in waterfowl. Lots of variable, lots of money, and lastly lots of things to consider.

Ya’ll have a safe weekend!![/quote]

[RockBottom]

+1

[duckhunterdoc]

If you haven't hunted the PPR with a spinner in a dry field you have no idea what's happening up north. Here's a little example.

The first numbers are directly from the North Dakota G&F website.
1998) 378,000 ducks killed
1999) 375,000 ducks killed, 6.1 per hunter
2000) 358,000 ducks killed, 5.9 per hunter
2001) 433,800 ducks killed, 6.6 per hunter (highest total in history)
2002) 555,200 ducks killed, 8.6 per hunter (last year I found published kill numbers)
There is some cause to believe the number published by North Dakota is far short of what the actual kill was as a USFWS report put the 2002 North Dakota duck kill at 693,400.

Spinners began to become widely used in the region in 2001. Hunters up north are laughing all the way to the picking shed, and they're laughing at us.

As a final note, the hunting was better in Arkansas during the ban. That's a fact.

............................
..Bill.......Appreciate the post and Avery's stance...sure you won't remember a Doc from Miss. but in @ 1998-2001 we hunted with you a few times at the Goat Farm...we were members during that time ..ya'll still have a membership there?--Carrington still running the show? How is he? WE had some great times up there and learned a lot about chasing ducks from you guys....was just a little far, for us ,so we have been staying close to Miss...Dang, you can call--I tell a lot of people about the birds in the ozone and how as you Hailed , and one every now and then one would peel off and float to his death...I say "every now and then" because these were birds nobody else woulda tried--Welcome to the Board

[Mark K]

The next time y'all watch a DU or Delta Waterfowl hunt on TV, count the spinners. I'ld be willing to bet the barn that 90% of everyone on here contributes to one or the other, including newbies. What message does that send? Send us your money to preserve the habitat so we can grow more ducks to shoot over spinners. If it's ok for them to do it on national TV, then surely it's ok for me, right?

Now for the limits. I've only been hunting waterfowl for 8 years now - it's all I do. But when I first started out it was about limits and then some. After the first year or two it was still about the limit but it had to be cupped and in your face - no pass shooting - that didn't count. The next few years were still about limits but there was something more, I was beginning to see the beauty of the hunt. The sunrise, the dogs work, just watching the flights of the ducks. Last year caught me totally off guard. I really didn't care about my limit or sometimes even if I got a shot. Why? My son, who has been going with me for about three years now, started getting really into the sport I love. He took his first limit last year during the MS youth waterfowl weekend. Yes, he's just like I was when I first started out (except I was 32 and he's only 11) - but to him now it's only about killing. Do I chastise him for that? No, everything in life is a progression. He'll learn through my actions what's right and wrong. Hopefully, starting out at a young age he'll see it earlier in life and be able to make more of a contribution to the sport than I can. This coming year we'll be in Arkie Land and hopefully it will be better than last year, not so much for me but for him.

[Bill Cooksey]

Good to hear from you Scott. How's that little girl you brought hunting? Reckon she's not so little now. The farm is still rolling with Carrington at the helm. In fact the membership hasn't changed much since you were there.

[Po Monkey Lounger]

I have only really started Hunting them in the past three years and I can say this as an outsider. This is the most unfriendly hunting sport there is. Most duck hunters do not want new people in the sport. Not willing to help new people.

Ace, truer words have not been spoken here. This is a very "unfriendly" sport for many beginners. Why? Due to hunter greed. Many hunters have been "burned" by greed based competition ---someone coming in and leasing a hunting tract out from under them, buying a tract right next to them, having a "secret" public hole suddenly become not so secret due to loose lips of invited guests or the invited guests returning without them to compete for the hole, etc. etc. And once burned, those hunters aren't too keen on sharing a lot of information with just anyone. So, then you have a very large pool of possessive hunters: (1) those fueled by greed; and (2) those paranoid from having been played by the greedy and resorting to defensive tactics. For these reasons, a beginning duck hunter, unfortunately, is lucky to have an experienced duck hunter to show them the ropes. This is especially true if you don't have an older family member who hunts ducks to be that person to show you the ropes.

I had no older family member that duck hunted. So, I had to learn the hard way, with little to no help at all, through much trial and error, with a huge emphasis on ERROR. Thinking back now to my early days of sorting out all of this myself, I laugh at myself for all the stupid things I did during this learning process. I would have most definately been in the running for "Topwater of the Year". And while I know much more now, I still manage to do some really stupid stuff on occasion and I am still learning. I don't think you ever stop learning --especially when you get the opportunity to hunt with new people who have more experience than yourself. When you get that chance, take it, but don't abuse it. And if you play your cards right, you might continue to get invited back every now and then.

As for the duck populations and spinners. I think the evidence is clear that the overall duck populations are not down due to the use of the spinners, which is why the USF&WS has not taken any action to ban them. What HAS happened due to their use, is a harvest shift ---- the northern states in the flyways are harvesting more ducks, and the southern states less. Overall, the harvest numbers have not been significantly negatively impacted. This is why putting this genie back in the bottle is going to be a difficult thing. Without USF&WS backing, the chance of the northern states voluntarily agreeing to any change that will decrease their harvest numbers are nill to none. Arkansas thought that by setting an example it could spur change within the MS flyway and other flyways. It did not work. And now AR has reversed its position, not wanting to be the lone ranger.