NRCS & U.S. Army Corp of Engineers question....

[msumallardman]

I know someone that just purchased a large tract of land that he wants to do a lot of improvements on to benefit waterfowl. This tract has over $80K CRP payment through 2015 on it that he would like to use for deer/duck improvements on this land.

He set up a meeting with the NRCS office to discuss the possibility of precision leveling three spots (two current and one new) for duck hunting. Two of these spots have enough watershed runoff to fill them up but the other would have to use a camelback and pump out of an adjacent existing wetland/old natural slough. He would also like to turn this current slough into a nice pond for fishing and waterfowl by creating a dam at one end and impounding more water. This would also allow more water to pump out of and providing more habitat for waterfowl, etc.

The NRCS guy said that this was a Corp of Engineers issue and that my friend would have to meet with the local Corp guy about creating the pond. (I hear that the Corp contact is a "by the book" person when it comes to wetlands). After creating a pond, the NRCS guy said that we would have to get a DEQ permit to pump out of it. He also said that my friend couldn't take a track hoe and clean out/channelize an old farm drainage ditch that had silted in.

However, with all of the above, the guy seemed to insinuate several time (in a very round about way) that "what they don't know won't hurt them."

Should my friend just do these improvements and not worry about any consequences?
(After all we are not draining any wetlands)

It should be noted that any improvements will not negatively affect any of our neighbors (i.e.-backing up water on them, draining water off of them, etc.)

I believe that this NRCS guy is about ready to retire and I wonder if my friend would get the same answers from another NRCS person in the same position. I'd love to know everyone's thoughts.

[deredwine]

He is probably talking about a 404 permit. The corps handles all 404 permits.

[Blackduck]

However, with all of the above, the guy seemed to insinuate several time (in a very round about way) that "what they don't know won't hurt them."

I agree. The only thing I'd check on is the dam and pond creation because it may affect downstream water supply or increase flooding elsewhere. There are all types of rules, many contradictory, and many from different agencies so it is impossible to decipher what is truly illegal or frowned upon.

[SWAG]

CRP has some things that can and can not be done. Some applications are allowed and the other may disrupt some payments or even mean paying back some $$$. Better talk (in detail) with the NRCS guy again, show him on the maps what needs to be done, and go from there. May have some Corps regulations to follow within them, but USDA is making the rental payment and would be the first to contact.

[msumallardman]

none of what we are trying to do will affect the CRP part of the property in any way. Nor will it affect any adjacent landowners. I have a good mind to tell my friend to do the work first and ask questions later.

[jwayne]

I would talk to the NRCS man again and the County Executive Director with the FSA. The FSA actually is who administers CRP before I did anything. Due to CRP regulations, you MUST comply with HEL and wetland provisions on the ENTIRE farm. If any violation is found (including wetland conversion of any kind) you may/will be ask to pay all the moneys received back plus cost share plus any incentives plus interest plus penalties and liquidated damages. If he is receiving an 80,000.00 payment.....This is going to be a lot of money!!!! They do not take wetland conversion lightly.
Buy the way....the Corps man is very BY THE BOOK when it comes to this...
What you friend can do is when he talks to the NRCS man again, he can ask him about using the EQIP program to develop a shallow water area on another part of the land.
Hope all this helps.

[Super Black Eagle]

Damned ole 404's, if you have to do one...make sure you have ALL the info, in the correct order at the correct scale...etc they'll send it back without so much as a note.... Higher an engineer or a surveying company to handle this for you...if you decide to go that route. Check the quad map (USGS) for the tributary to or from the wetland you are interested in modifying...if it is named, you need a 404... if it is a blueline stream, you need a 404...if it is depicted, you probably need a 404....if not then delete this post and any other trace of ever bringing up the question, and just do it...but you probably still need a 404.


Holler at bourbon, I think he is an expert in these things.....I think.

[msumallardman]

Thanks for all of the input guys. Ya'll have given me some good information to work with.

[jwarwick]

If the budget is big like it seems to be, I would not depend on pumping out of a slough to fill another area. You're robbing Peter to pay Paul. If at all possible put in an irrigation well in a strategic place that can flood multiple areas including the old slough and the new spots too.

A fishing lake in the Delta (flat) would need to be dug out wouldn't it?
If you don't deepen it by excavating, and you put up a 4 or 5 foot dam across the drain-end of a slough- that water would back up for a mile up the old river bed, but you would have a really shallow lake which wouldn't do for fishing. Could be great for ducks though!

The quality of the NRCS experience depends on the County in which the property is located. All-in-all they have been very helpful to me in multiple counties.

[muscall]

He set up a meeting with the NRCS office to discuss the possibility of precision leveling three spots (two current and one new) for duck hunting. Two of these spots have enough watershed runoff to fill them up but the other would have to use a camelback and pump out of an adjacent existing wetland/old natural slough. He would also like to turn this current slough into a nice pond for fishing and waterfowl by creating a dam at one end and impounding more water. This would also allow more water to pump out of and providing more habitat for waterfowl, etc.

The NRCS guy said that this was a Corp of Engineers issue and that my friend would have to meet with the local Corp guy about creating the pond. (I hear that the Corp contact is a "by the book" person when it comes to wetlands). After creating a pond, the NRCS guy said that we would have to get a DEQ permit to pump out of it. He also said that my friend couldn't take a track hoe and clean out/channelize an old farm drainage ditch that had silted in.

It should be noted that any improvements will not negatively affect any of our neighbors (i.e.-backing up water on them, draining water off of them, etc.)

I believe that this NRCS guy is about ready to retire and I wonder if my friend would get the same answers from another NRCS person in the same position. I'd love to know everyone's thoughts.

Good luck with the project. I don't have any ideas on dealing with the Corp on this type of thing, I just know that these type of projects can be done. Here is a link to pictures of the Hatchiecoon hunting clubs lake project. This was done on wetlands. Your project will probably not be as big as theirs.

http://www.hatchiecoon.com/projects_lake.asp

If anyone knows of a member of their club, they may could give you some direction on this. I think the biggest part of the membership is out of Memphis.

[cajun squealer]

Good luck with the project. I don't have any ideas on dealing with the Corp on this type of thing, I just know that these type of projects can be done. Here is a link to pictures of the Hatchiecoon hunting clubs lake project. This was done on wetlands. Your project will probably not be as big as theirs.

http://www.hatchiecoon.com/projects_lake.asp

If anyone knows of a member of their club, they may could give you some direction on this. I think the biggest part of the membership is out of Memphis.

Who are those two good lookin' fellows on the front and rear of the shock boat?

Yep, the Hatchie Coon folks probably went through enough red tape to tie a bow around the moon for that project. They ought to have some useful information if they're willing to divulge.

[BAY KINGFISHER]

count on large fines if you buck the corps and they find out!!! Id due my due diligence on this one!!! and I do know they look on google earth to find changes, or your neighbors rat you out!!!