Heartworms?????

[Troy Williams]

Vet is of the opinion that it lasts 30 days and only 30 days.

I think you better check your vet. Ivomec, as far as I know, doesn't have a life that long.

As I understand it the meds kill the larvae AS the meds circulate thru the circulatory system. If you have an infestation of mosqs that are postive with the worm larvae then your dog will get bit and infected daily, forget about monthly. All dogs in HW postive areas are bitten and infected.

Ask your vet this: At the Hartguard factory, for whatever reason, you got "X" amount of Micrograms of ivermectin in your chewable to only cover 29 days, not 30, and your dog if bitten on the 30th day would then be infected with Heartworms? I think that is completely erroneous info. If MY vet told me that I would do 3 things: 1) my homework. 2) inform my vet of his error. 3) get another vet if I couldn't convince him to look into it and get back to me OR give me a better option. I may get another vet anyway just for not knowing how this stuff works that they sell me at very high prices.

THEN, what if my dogs eat the chewable and some crumbs fall from their mouths? That would mean he didn't get the amount of MCG's he needed and wasn't covered for 30 days as well. What kind of Quality is there in that? I say None! If that is the way it works then I would expect the Med manufacturere to specifically explain that to it's millions of customers.

Fact is it doesn't work that way. I haven't been told this but what I think is (based on my research), well, acutally two things I think are possbile from what I've learned:
1. The amount of the dose in HG is so weak that when dogs are bitten the larvae escape treatment in parts of the body that are not reached and subsequently live thru the killing stages of life. But if that were the case then why are there more chronic break-throughs isolated to the areas I mentioned in the other post? Why not in Louisiana then?

OR,

2. Some of the larvae are just not susceptible to the low dose anymore or, not susceptible to it at all, no matter what the dose. I tend the think it's the "low dose problem" because there are alot of people that are using the straight Ivomec at a higher dosage in the areas mentioned and have had ZERO problems. Me included and I live in dowtown Mosquitoville. We always have water and mosquitos in my backyard. It's called the Mississippi River.

I really don't know what the problems are except that I don't trust the current markets products to protect my dogs after their failures on two of mine and ALOT of friends dogs. AND to give two of the HG's monthly to me is unreasonable for sure and very expensive as well.

Just some thoughts for you all.

Not picking on you Meeka; Hope it didn't sound that way.

Troy-who posted at the same time as Gator. Good stuff from him for sure!!

[goosebruce]

dib, most vets are no more informed on hartworms than I give them credit for. The companies that are supposed to inform them, are not. The compaines they buy medicines from, and prescribe to you, are not telling them the truth. Your vet and the fellow from ga, and even crackerbarrell are proof of that. They aren't lying, or ignorant, they haven't seen it. And since nobody has informed them, how could they know? Thats what I'm pissed about. Thats the rub on all this. It took several years for the companies to admit there is a problem, but they still aren't getting the word out. Theres easily 15 dogs from my club alone, that have come up postive for hartworms in the last couple years... yet we had a vet tech from jackson ms last year at old hatchie tell us dogs that are treated with preventative dont come up postive (we had over 10 dogs in the circle talking at that moment that did). I aint talking about somebodys beagle or hounddog, Im talking labs people spend thousands of dollars on. My dogs ride in a $5500 dog box... you think I'm gonna miss a freggin hartworm pill or not buy any? Every single thing for a dog I got the best money can buy, would spend anything to keep my dogs healthy (and have), yet nobody can tell me how to 100% postive keep my dogs hartworm free. And one tank of gas away from me, vets have no ideal dogs are having hartworm breakthrus like crazy. Flapping lips on the net or not, the people in this discussion have been researching hartworm breakthrus since before your dog was born, and have a lot more experience with it than your vet, since hes never seen it. Ask your vet if hes aware of the hartworm symposios last year. Or the fact hartguard changed the wording on their website to simply say it was a preventaive with no promises of effectiveness, and then changed the directions to crumble the pill and started the they spit it out whole so it doesnt work thing. The product has been out for years, if dogs spitting it out was the problem, or people not giving them, why is there a proven increase of postives in the effected area? Dogs are the same, and so are people. And with the scare, people are more likely to treat their dogs, double treat their dogs, and test more often, yet postives still increase in the effected area, with no formal acknowledgement by the vet industry.

I know postives on liquid ivermectin too troy. But not as many, and its defiently cheaper. The money you save on preventative will help offset the cost on inevitable treatments, since the guarentees are almost useless and the preventatives are failing. I'm just still jacked up over mixing anything... I know its silly, but thats me. So I keep spending hundreds on medicines I know barely work.

The entire industy ought to be aware. When you take your dog into a vets office, they should be able to tell you about the midsouth and the hartworm problem here. They should be ready to inform you about the increased risks, and how the guarentees actually do work. Thats being proactive. When we spoke to hartguard they wouldn't acknowledge theres even a problem... let alone educate anyone. Its an awful situation. travis

[goosebruce]

btw, rumor is, klumpi will keep your dogs hartworm free, and their ears rosey! travis

[Doc & Nash]

The original purpose of this post was to get the local reps to give some feed back on the situation. Keep in mind this post is over a year old.

This information was provided to all three reps and only one admitted any knowledge of it. She did not at that time have any cases with her product. The other two Heartguard and Interceptor denied it all, to the point where the Heartguard "spokesperson" denied ever having a documented case where the cost of treatment was reimbursed. BTW I know for a fact that Sprig 70 was reimbursed his treatment cost on Spook from Heartguard. Spook had to be go thru two treatments and He is the first of what seemed like a long list of dogs in the area.

The season coming back around and with all the rain mosquitos are going to be bad this Spring. It is good that this has been brought back up to remind everyone of what the possibilities could be.

[Troy Williams]

I know postives on liquid ivermectin too troy. But not as many, and its defiently cheaper. The money you save on preventative will help offset the cost on inevitable treatments, since the guarentees are almost useless and the preventatives are failing. I'm just still jacked up over mixing anything... I know its silly, but thats me. So I keep spending hundreds on medicines I know barely work.
travis

I'm not trying to avoid spending the money on treatment...I'm trying to avoid the infection & treatment themselves. i'm not sure an infection is inevitable, right now I feel confident in what I'm doing and that means alot to me.

I only know of one dog infected on straight Ivermectin and it was in training with a Pro's in N. Miss. with over 30 dogs on sight and no other dogs there have been infected that I know of. I don't profess to know the answers, only to have done my homework and as Gator said......."You can only do what you can do".

In my opinion and in my case, If I still bought the Vet prescribed meds, HG & Interceptor, I would be getting two guarantees:
1. My dogs treatment will be covered,(Mine were and Interceptor reimbursed me)
2. My dogs will get infected. (Mine DID get infected. No thanks!)

I refuse to pay for those guarantees together and instead I play the odds and try to stack the deck in our favor.

Troy Williams - aka T-Roy

[wesley hamm]

one of mine was on straight ivormectin and had heartworms.

do what you can do and that is all you can do.

[Dogzeye]

I believe the areas most effected by this problem, are also those with the least means to affect the mosquito populations. I know Tallahatchie county didn't have a single full blown stop light in the thirty years I lived there, much less the capacity to fight mosquitoes with any means beyond run off from the fields. And, with IPM field applicants the mosquito populations have thrived. Your dog is continually infected at rate much higher than other areas still considered hot spots for HW infections. This is the type of condition that will find a weakness in a management program. A dog treated by the boutique vet down the street may receive an infecting bite once a month? Tally probably received three infecting bites a minute throughout every morning and evening he was outside. And, in the MS delta/north he would have still received bites throughout the night in the house. I know the family did.

The rate of breakthrough is most likely proportional to the infecting bite ratio. At least this is what I thought after the boutique vet showed me a chart with red zones and proceeded to equate Chatham counties mosquito/HW risk with the MS Delta. I have lived here over a year. This county owns four or more helicopters that fly on IGR everytime an old lady calls in a says she thinks she saw a mosquito in her back yard. It's kind of crazy really, its like calling in a tactical air strike! On top of that they still run a fleet of trucks to fog and a fleet to apply liquid IGR to ditches and ponds.

You can buy methoprene in concentrated bricks, not the donuts from walmart, but the same ones sold to municipal contracts. Most Mosquitoes do not fly more than several hundred yards from their daytime retreats. The wind will move them greater distances, but in the heat of summer the winds in the MS are still for the most part. I have used this product in the slews behind my house in MC. It works. And, you can get a finer granulated for sheet water applications.

I was really hoping someone could point me to a printed statement or correspondance concerning the HW in the MS river regions. I really wanted to lay that on the counter the next time I walked in the vets office. I don't think he liked it when I told him he didn't know what a Mosquito was, I know I didn't like it when he implied I didn't give the treatments.

You really don't know what a mosquito is unitl you have been on a rice levee at sundown in the MS delta, or until you spend some time in a third world country.

The reps are really doing the company a dis-service. Its not statistically possible to say HG products don't work to "prevent" infections. And, the anecdotal evidence suggests it does fail under certain conditions in regionally specific areas. The reality is the company could probably create an upgraded line of increased dosage products with tighter control for weights and market them at a higher price point and higher incidence of follow up visits at the vet. The bottom line is this, HG from the vet is the equivalent of feeding your dog purina off the grocery store shelf; it's a perfect product for 99% of the dogs fed. But, there is a specific niche market that demands a higher quality product to meet the needs of the dogs. Purnina markets ProPlan to meet that need. HG needs to address this secondary market not by paying to get rid of the failed applications, but by putting together a product that will bring the infection rate back in line with the rest of the market.

[Ducklord]

my miniature dachshund tested positive Sat. She is a inside dog and has been on heartgard preventative every month since the vet said go. She has always tested positive until now. I have an 11 yr old Golden who gets the same pills at the sime time and he tested negative Sat. He is an outside dog, so I don't understand it. No word yet on whether Heartgard is covering the expense, but will update when I find out. My vet said that he is seeing more and more cases come in and that the Heartgard rep is blaming it on Katrina pushing a different type of mosquito up this way. I call BS.

[Troy Williams]

my miniature dachshund tested positive Sat. She is a inside dog and has been on heartgard preventative every month since the vet said go. She has always tested positive until now. I have an 11 yr old Golden who gets the same pills at the sime time and he tested negative Sat. He is an outside dog, so I don't understand it. No word yet on whether Heartgard is covering the expense, but will update when I find out. My vet said that he is seeing more and more cases come in and that the Heartgard rep is blaming it on Katrina pushing a different type of mosquito up this way. I call BS.

That IS a load of CRAP!!!! Do they have a different preventative medicine downsouth?????

Troy

[Copiah Creek]

My 8 year old Yellow female tested positive 2 weeks ago after 7 years of negative it pizzed me off BUT Heartguard is paying for her treatment ,,,,,,4 more tested neg. the same day ,,,they live in the same kennels next to her and take the same pill on the same day ,,,go figure !

[Troy Williams]

I would like to know how she takes the treatment at 8 yrs old. Keep me posted if you don't mind.

Thx!

[Doc & Nash]

Odds are she was the only one that got bitten by the infected mosquito. I would be willing to bet if they are all left in the current conditions and the current prevenative the results will be the same for the other 4.

Sad part is, I have seen Alan kennels they are in great shape and well kept. This is not a case where neglect is the reasoning behind the infection.

It has gotten to the point where Heartguard and interceptor are nothing other than an insurance plan to cover the cost of heartworm treatment.....

[Copiah Creek]

Trey i hope the rest dont come down with it ,,,,im going to retest at 4 months instead of yearly ,,,,,Gabe , Gauge , Tess and Trouble were all negative (THIS TIME) .

[goosebruce]

Dont matter how nice kennels are. My moms scream dog aint spent a night in a kennel since she was a puppy... lives in a 4000 square foot house and naps on a $3000 rug... and she got them, was treated twice, and then changed meds... go figger.

posted on hrc website today... As you know there is a link on the home page to a survey being conducted by the University of Tennessee. I am working with a parisitologist and an epidemiologist to try to find out how and why dogs that are currently on heartworm prevention are contracting heartworm disease. Hard copies were put in all handlers' bags at the Spring Grand. The link was put on the website the Friday of the Grand Banquet. To date the University has only received 130 surveys. Statistically, we need a minimum of 1,000 responses. Please take a few minutes to fill out the survey and return it to the researcher. Heartworm disease is an ever growing threat to our dogs. It is appearing across the country, not just in isolated areas. Worst of all it is spreading in spite of efforts to stop it. If you are unware of this issue, contact your veterinarian. If he/she is unaware, have them contact the American Heartworm Society (http://www.americanheartwormsociety.org). Labrador retrievers are the number one breed when it comes to heartworm positive dogs. The HRC was chosen as a "test group" due the the predominance of labrador retrievers and the value (both sentimental and economic) of our dogs. HRC was also chosen based upon my recommendation to the University. After speaking with Claudene, we felt this was the best way to gather as much information as possible in an effort to make a real difference for our dogs. We ask alot from these family members, I feel we owe it to them to do our best to protect them. Thank you, in advance, for your time. Feel free to contact me with any questions.

Bob Strong, DVM
drbdstrong@northlakeanimalhospital.com

[cdwyer]

I talked with a local pro at the Grand who has a kennel of 60+ dogs. He has installed big high volume circulating fans that run 24/7. Research has shown that mosquitoes will avoid wind where ever possible. He is using one of the big two preventatives 1st of the month and then middle of the month using Advantix Multi.
Before I went to the Grand three of my dogs were due yearly shots and their 6 month test. Lee Payne said he would bet that 1 of the three would test positive, we were fotunate and all three were neg. Thats how bad it is. After the Grand took one more in to Dr. Lofton in Senatobaia for shots and 6 month test, she was clear as well. However the vet tech. told us that for Interceptor to foot the bill we have to keep the box w/the lot number. Hadn't heard this before. We have 6 dogs and looked back at the records and Dr. Lofton's office always picks the first dog on the list when we buy pills. From now own we will rotate each month a different dog and staple the part of the box with the lot # on it. Sounds like not having the lot # could be a loophole for the manufacturer or hopefully they are using this info to back track and improve?