NRCS & U.S. Army Corp of Engineers question....

[msumallardman]

I know someone that just purchased a large tract of land that he wants to do a lot of improvements on to benefit waterfowl. This tract has over $80K CRP payment through 2015 on it that he would like to use for deer/duck improvements on this land.

He set up a meeting with the NRCS office to discuss the possibility of precision leveling three spots (two current and one new) for duck hunting. Two of these spots have enough watershed runoff to fill them up but the other would have to use a camelback and pump out of an adjacent existing wetland/old natural slough. He would also like to turn this current slough into a nice pond for fishing and waterfowl by creating a dam at one end and impounding more water. This would also allow more water to pump out of and providing more habitat for waterfowl, etc.

The NRCS guy said that this was a Corp of Engineers issue and that my friend would have to meet with the local Corp guy about creating the pond. (I hear that the Corp contact is a "by the book" person when it comes to wetlands). After creating a pond, the NRCS guy said that we would have to get a DEQ permit to pump out of it. He also said that my friend couldn't take a track hoe and clean out/channelize an old farm drainage ditch that had silted in.

However, with all of the above, the guy seemed to insinuate several time (in a very round about way) that "what they don't know won't hurt them."

Should my friend just do these improvements and not worry about any consequences?
(After all we are not draining any wetlands)

It should be noted that any improvements will not negatively affect any of our neighbors (i.e.-backing up water on them, draining water off of them, etc.) nor will any of what we are proposing adversely affect or break any of the rules regardging the CRP part of the property.

I believe that this NRCS guy is about ready to retire and I wonder if my friend would get the same answers from another NRCS person in the same position. I'd love to know everyone's thoughts.

[richard b evers]

My Dad had a large pond built with out the permits - the contractor doing the work talked him in to doing the improvements and not worry about any consequences - He is know getting suede by about three different agencies - over just the paper work - he has had to hire an engineering firm to do a study on the effects that the pond will have on the habitat - he has had to clean off all silt from run off by hand, they will not let him bring any heavy equipment in to do the work because it will cause more damage -

[TODO]

Seems like a big load of horseshat to me . . . outta be able to build a pond on your own place as you please as long as it doesnt flood the neighbors. I guess the issue is its currently in crp?

[JaMak84]

The whole idea about "it's easier to ask forgiveness than ask permission" can get your ass in a sling real quick with the corp. If you don't get caught, great. If you do get caught, the corp can take every govn't payment he's recieving on that farm and any other property he may be involved in that is recieving any payments. All it takes is one call from a neighbor or a tree huggin hippie riding down the road to screw the pouch. That being said, what you described doesn't sound like that big a deal. You should be able to clean out and already existing ditch if it has silted in due to mismanagement. The daming up the slough would come under a wetland issue with the corp. He should be able to get a permit for that. Lastly about the camal back, it's a state law that you have to have a permit for pumping surface or groundwater. It may be a pain in the ass to jump through all the gov't hoops but I gaurantee you it's better than the alternative.

[deredwine]

The corps handles all 404 permits. I would get the permit done if I were you. I work for the Corps.

[Delta Duck]

It's no big deal getting a 404 permit. If it is a legit job!

Might take a few weeks to set up a time to meet. Have the project laid out on paper with aerial photos.


Then do the project on your own land anyway! If you get in trouble, then block the roads hold up for weeks at a time and get on the evening news. Be sure to have plenty of guns and ammo.

[jwayne]

I hope you read my post on the habitat forum ......

[mfalkner]

mallardman,

Best do it by the book. The agency people are not fools, and what you are talking about are Federal regs. All it takes is one disgruntled neighbor to drop a dime on you and life will cease to be fun.

Find an engineer in the area (who has experience dealing with this stuff) and they should be able to steer you through the rocks. Shoot me a PM with the general location of the property and I can refer you to some good people.

Mike

[MMallard]

Permitting is not a problem and most any local Env firm can handle all you permitting and hoops you have to jump through. Talking about the amount of money your putting into the property to enhance the resources, a few bucks to get a firm to handle the paper work is chump change. Also, the USACE is a regulating agency with enforcement jurisdiction, but they are not allowed to penalize nor fine anyone. They turn the information over to the EPA for fines. Depending on where you are, just look up your local district office and contact the Reg division. Its either Mobile District outta Columbus, or Vicksburg District outta Vicksburg.

Good luck

[msumallardman]

Thanks for all of the input guys. Ya'll have given me some ideas to work with.