long water entry issues

[gator]

need some stuff to chew on here and maybe get some new ideas i hadn't thought of before.

history: 2 y/o that's moved along at a fare clip, testing waters where he can, but overall has turned into a nice dog. all the basic stuff has been/is done including but not limited to OB/FF/CC/FTP etc etc....i'll say, the dog is marking some kinda good right now -- i mean real good, but i'll also say, his overall water attitude (particularly blind work) is not great, esp after several sends that you'd see in your typical tune-up.

current issue as you may be able to see from the post title is long water entrys, simply put, he just can't seem to get it (or want to). run from the bank as you'd see in a HT and he's golden, but run a blind requiring a long entry and he has trouble (particularly IF he can see the water from a distance). he tends to bug and never takes a good line -- almost an avoidance issue IMHO but it's extremely aversive -- he's "no-goed" a few times actually, but i could see confusion in his eyes.

trapper has had issues before this (big one was using the gun as a crutch) due to a handler that rushed him and pushed marks that were too long/hard/much on him as a young'un. but, he's always (and i do mean always) figured it out and became a better dog for it --->i'm prone to think this will be much the same but as stated, i'm looking for tidbits i haven't thought of before.

do me a favor, remember that short entries are NOT a problem, it's the long ones......i'm looking for a dog that SEEKS water and am willing to chalk this up to age and inexperience right now --> but, i'll say, i'm not liking what i'm seeing right now.

any thoughts?

gator

[gator]

p.s.

ain't sure what flight, but the lil dude will be a master test dog all this weekend.........i'll be working the tests otherwise, so ya'll say high.

gator

[bigbeeducker]

Just from reading your post, to me it almost sounds like a confidence thing. Kinda had that same trouble, mine never no-goed but would lose major momentum when she finally got to the water, even did it somewhat with obstacles such as cover and ditches etc. We fixed it by setting up PB that I taught 25 yards or so at a time. In the end the blind was run anywhere from
150 to 300 yards and gradually the problem ceased. I don't know what your thoughts on returning to a PB setup are, but sometimes you gotta lose a foot to gain a yard. Just my .02 that ain't worth half that i'm sure.

[skuna]

Had to go back and do work on this with Ace after I started running AKC stuff. I had never seen it in HRC so we did not train for it.

Question: does he have the same problem if the mark falls in the water as opposed to up the bank? Or are we only talking blinds here?

With blinds, I started way back and handled and corrected if needed. With marks I slowly increased the distance to the water. I also found that if the mark splashed I got a better result. And then moved to throwing the marks up the bank.

[goosebruce]

Welp, Id run a blind from the waters edge where he hauls booty from, with a big pile of bumpers. Probably even id the pile for him. Then as he came back to me, Id back up, 20 yards or so at a time, till I was 100 yards back or so. Take the destination off his mind will keep attitude and momentum up. The more stress you put on it, the worst he'll get, and the worst the problem will be. If hes bugging when you line up on blinds like that, you can correct from where you line up and add pressure, or go somewhere new and start from the bank and back up. Only you know your dog well enough to know which way to go, but Id only add pressure if I thought for sure he was simply advoiding it. BTW, the more 'cheating' work you do right now the more stress you will add. my 2 cents, that and 59.98 more will get you your own field trial entry! hehe. travis

[B3]

Maybe work on the long entry as a mark? Use cheating single type setup so its not such a drudgery and if you have an issue maybe the correction won't bleed over into his blind running attitude.

I'd do what Travis said but just have the destination be a mark instead.

Bill

[goosebruce]

I'm guessing cheating marks is what has caused the bugging (the worry when he sees land then water). To me, a blind makes more sense because its all about the line. By starting with sucess, and enforcing your line on the return, and then backing up, the line becomes the destination as well as the pile. I run channel blinds before I ever throw a cheating mark for that reason. Also if you have a correction on a blind, you don't risk rocking the boat like you do on a mark. Real easy to over do cheating type situations, create the stress to ensure more problems, and then risk having other marking issues when it bleeds over. All the issues with blinds you could get problems in shudda been worked out in the yard, the tools there, and get over it faster. travis

[B3]

I'm referring to a cheating single drill setup as a repeated mark but not necessarily a tough cheating single mark. Its the repetition with a known destination just like a pile but maybe with a little more excitement at the end. Either way the destination is known and the long entry concept is isolated and repeated. You could do both ways and I've done both ways and both worked for me.

I had a place that had short cut grass lawn that was huge with a pond in the middle. I did big white bumpers in a pile there that were visible 200 yds away. Could do 100 yd entries at that spot.

Seems like more than 1 way to deal with it- I'd isolate the issue and get repetition

This is the type of training that makes me wish I had a big dog.

Bill

[T-Bone]

Good thread........on a training topic..... imagine that!!!

thanks gator for posting up the topic....I needed this as well.

[Tripp DuPerrieu]

Walking singles with long entries and exits...short grass. don't make the marks cheaty...you are not working on cheating you are working on the entry and the attitude, plenty of time for slivers later. Dog hits the fat part of the water with all the marks until attitude improves.

OR what Travis said...set up a pile, start at the bank and back up slowly with each send. Get the confidence back before you start hitting slivers again.

When you start getting cheaty again, leave the remote in your pocket and handle in a drill type scenario.

[Troy Williams]

Is the only problem the bugging and the one no-go or is the no-go chronic?

When he goes what does he do? Get in early or totally cheat and not get in? OR does he get in but with nervousness and without momentum.

Does this happen after the long breaks from work as in after your long week or honeymoon? Congrats BTW!!

Help me some.................

Troy

[Troy Williams]

p.s.

ain't sure what flight, but the lil dude will be a master test dog all this weekend.........i'll be working the tests otherwise, so ya'll say high.

gator

Of course-
Handle for the cheats as test dog. Treat it like training without the collar.

[SkippyJ]

Attrition.....WHEN you get back to the long cheaty stuff. Mine running 3,457,965 MPH on long cheaty stuff, would want to cheat simply because she could get there faster. And I'm talking REAL TIGHT CHEATY, maybe just cutting a corner of water...... Way I did it was "Toot, "NO HERE!!!" back to the point of the cheat started, then cast the line I wanted. Of course I'm preaching to the choir on this, I realize.... Trappers ALOT like Lucy, they both want to please so bad, I think that would work over time.

[Kelly]

check your pm's
Kelly Scott
Red Stick Retrievers LLC

[T-Bone]

check your pm's
Kelly Scott
Red Stick Retrievers LLC

Kelly,
Last I heard they were having an issue in the PM department as in not working.