Lab Question

[injun_23]

I would appreciate some opinions on this. I will have access to two Lab puppies in the next year from planned litters. I do not want a "kennel" or 3 month out of the year dog but a friend and companion that will spend a lot of time in-doors as a "family" member and go where I go when reasonable. Are Labs practical for this situation? My plan is to get a puppy as early as possible (I really want a female first) and train it my self. Any opinions or experiences will be appreciated. Thanks. Merry Christmas and Great Hunting.

[goosebruce]

Brother, you just described a lab.

Nothing is a do all, catch all, go anywhere, part of the family dog like a lab. Thats why you see them in so many places do so many different jobs.

Make your new year resolution to join a local hunting retrevier club... you'll be glad you did, and your soon to be new family member will love you for it. travis

[Drakeshead]

I too would suggest a lab, but I would be sure and look at the mother and father closely. If either one of them is too rampuctous, you might not want one of the pups in your house as the pup is going to be that way. I have found that the English bred labs seem to not be as high strung as the American breed. Granted they all came from Newfoundland, but we Americans over the years have wanted a more high strung bred lab for the AKC trials.

I tend to like the English bred lab, but this is only my opinion and I am sure I am going to take some flak for saying all this, but it is only my opinion. Most of the breeders that I have been in contact with that breed the English lab will also help you train your lab, either by phone or if you come to their location on the weekends for free.

If you do not already have these books, I would suggest "Water Dog" by Richard Wolters and Retriever "Training For The Duck Hunter" by Robert Milner.

Please do not think that I do not like the American lab as that is not the case, but with so many backyard kennels, the market is flooded with labs that may or may not do what you want them to do. They may fetch, but are they going to be controllable without stapping a car battery on them.

Anyway, good luck and Happy Holidays!

[dukdawgn]

I'm not going to slaughter you for having Brit dawgs. Hell, I've got a 3 1/2 month old Brit pup in my backyard that's grandsired from FTCH Pocklea Remus. Make no bones about it, a lab pup is gonna get into whatever in the hell is within reach, and sometimes whatever they can climb up to get at. I have American and British labs in the kennel, and either of the two can scrap with the best of 'em when they are puppies. I've noticed the difference in demeanor kick in with the style of training. Older methods of Brit training involve teaching/training/working obedience with a dog up to around 1 1/2 yrs of age. More modern methods used in the US today don't prolong the obedience for such a long time....rather, they incorporate the obedience work into day to day activities, and move on towards more advanced retriever training at younger ages. A lab that will not destroy your house is a very unique dog, and I know several friends who have both American and Brit dawgs under their roof. Truth be known, I know of more American "house" dawgs than I do Brit's. That's not to say one is better than the other. The end quality of your dog is only as good as the training you've instilled into him. (a nice pedigree sure helps too).

[goosebruce]

Being hi strung in the house is a product of poor socialization, NOT genetic.

Blaming socialization and training problems on genetics is uninformed.

There are some very nice lines of brit labs, but to generalize and say they are all low key dogs is as wrong as saying american labs are all hi strung. But either way, the concearns you appear to have are unfounded as they are behavioral problems, not genetic.

There is also a lot of crap imported and bred to unknowing people... they buy into the brit lab thing and assume since they came from over the pond, they are good stock. Lots of dogs are bred that should never be bred, here and there. Don't go thinking the UK stamp is carte' blanche safe on a litter, cause it just isn't so.

A good dog is a good dog, period. Looking for a litter, look for repete breedings, from titled parents, with health guarentees. Using the country of orgin alone as basis for a litter is silly.


I love that laid back brit dog line too.... I can show you one that breathes FIRE, has all the brit stuff on his peddygree, and real american hunt test titles to back it up. He's a good dog, not because he's british or american, but because he's a good dog. It's just that simple.

Looking over at my hi octane american lab right now... he's on his back, with my wifes foot on his belly. He's laid in the middle of Christmas presents all morning, without me beating his ass or shocking him. Wow. You mean a balls to the walls american ft peddigree dog can sit in the living room with a family? Yup. He's calm as can be, until released... It's socialization, not genetics. Genetics come into play once you get to the field.... and you don't even want to go into those genetics! Comparing the genetics of dogs that where bred to play a game that values marking, drive, hart, and trainabilty vrs a dog bred to play a game that values sitting and a roundabout hunt em up is a nonissue. Any dog can sit with a miniumum of training...but you can't teach marking or prey drive.

Does the average brit lab have nuff genetics for the average hunter? Sure. But so did the dog he had before that one that sat on the couch it's entire life...because the owner didn't do anything with it. No breeding will overcome that, and buying into the hype of dogs that supposedly naturally do all this crap won't change the fact the owner still has socialize and train the dog. travis

[skygazer]

labs are the best of both worlds. you can have a hunter and a best friend all in one. i have a 9 year old female who has had limited hunting experience but put out a litter of fine hunting dogs. CaptnT has one of her "sons" who is a housedog, field trial champion, and darn good hunter all in one. as for the hyperactivity, show me a true lab that isn't. at 9 years old my dog is hyper as hell. they can be taught when it's not time to be hyper. check out the bloodline and get you a lab man. get the book "water dog" by richard a. wolters. CaptnT and i both trained our dogs using this book as a guide. like i said his is a champion. labs are like family. you cant go wrong.

[Bustin' Ducks]

Injun...Listen to Goose, Skygazer, Drakeshead and Dukdawgn they have hit the Labs right on the nose..The Labs are the best breed I've found with young'ens...I just picked up a CHoc male..I bought him for X Mas..and man do the girls love him to death!! Everyone in the family enjoys the pup...Goose..I've heard about the Lab Retreiver Clubs but have had w/ no luck finding one..Do you know of any around a guy can get into....Merry X Mas all!!

[dukdawgn]

Bustin' Ducks.....

MS-BAMA Hunting Retriever Club
and
South Mississippi Hunting Retriever Club...are right in your neck of the woods. Visit http://www.hrc-ukc.com and follow the links to club listings/directory. You will be able to find the names of who to contact, and in most cases, a website for the clubs.

You can also talk with Mr. Bobby Williams, who can often be found on this message forum. Bobby is the Regional Director for the MS/AL area for the national level of HRC, and is just over your shoulder in Greensboro, AL. There is a club there, too. Its Central Alabama HRC.

You could look up Mr. Bill Watson down in south Mississippi. You can find him at his kennels: Gator Pt. Kennels or Retrievers or Labs or dawgs or something to that affect. He is a very respectable fellow (he has to be to train all them chocolate dawgs....HAHHAHAHAHAHA) I believe he's over in Tylertown, MS.

[Drakeshead]

I knew I would catch some flak on the Brit lab thing and I really wasn't trying to start an argument and I respect everyones comments as all of you have respected my comments. The only problem that I have is the point that was made about a dog being high strung due socialization and not genetics. I have talked and worked with several breeders of British Labs, Caney Creek Kennel http://www.caneycreekkennel.com and Wildrose Kennels http://www.uklabs.com , and the American lab kennels, Jackson Kennels and Gator Point Kennels. Each one will tell you that if the female or male is throwing pups that are not of the temperment and hunting abilities that they wish to promote at their kennel, then they will null/stop that breeding.

If I have a female who has a quite disposition and I would like to try to get that same disposition from her pups, of course there is guarentee, would I breed her to a male that is high strung or to one with a long line/pedigree/genitically proven to have a quite disposition?

Please do not feel as though I am starting an arguement. Just a guy giving his thoughts and comments.

[Big Lou]

Bust'in Ducks, as always you are only told one side of the story. There are also AKC hunt test clubs in youe area. The magnolia Ret. Club in Jackson, The Norhteast Louisiana Ret. Club in Monroe. These are both excellent training groups. they both prepare your dog to be an excelent hunter that will be under control and delivery to HAND. If you would like more information please contact me via PM and I can give you info on any AKC club. I do recomend you join one and trully enjoy your new companion. If you get a chance try going to the Mike Lardy web site and downloading his series of articles he wrote for the Ret. Journal Mag. and this will give you an excellent start to your training. good Luck.

[Big Lou]

Goosebruce, since my dog has completed his imtermediate Senior AKC title should I just enter him in the UKC finnished, I hear it is not a big jump. It should be a good warm up for the AKC Masters this spring from what I hear. What do you think? Oh, My other other dog just completed his Junior title, so would Seasoned be a good spot for entry before I take him into Senior AKC?

[Drakeshead]

UKC or AKC try them both out. If you like both, stay in both. If you prefer one over the other, stay in one. Joining either club will get you in contact with other trainers that can help out with any problems that you may have or come across in your training. It is like the pronunciation of tomato and potato. Depending on who you talk to depends on which pronunciation is better. That is the case with the two clubs. One person may swear by one, the other by the other. Check them both out and decided for yourself as both are good organizations.

[dukdawgn]

OH ma GAWSH....

here we go again... the timeless battle between folks feeling deprivity over someone mentioning UKC and not AKC. I'm not recommending HRC over AKC, but simply mentioning the one's I know of. I'm not just telling one side of the story, but merely opening the can of worms that will more than likely lead to about 10 pages of posts on this particular subject. I like HRC due to the closer ties to actual hunting situations incorporated into their testing and standards. AKC has good tests, but I simply CHOOSE to run HRC because that's my gig. I'm not big on tests that don't have a real gun in your hands, or ones producing shots from the field. THis is the same reason I don't participate in NAHRA or AKC Field Trials/Qualifiers.

Once again, your not catching flak over Brit dawgs...we are just making you aware of fact, someone elses spoken fact, and good salesmanship. I don't care how many breeders say that any line of dogs do their stuff naturally, or with little training..... that's a line of $#!+, plain and simple. A little trained dog is just that--little trained. Sure, you can have an ordinary meat dog with little effort, and most folks that buy into salesmanship are more than satisfied with a meat dog. I dont want my dog to pick up 5 out of 7, or 6 out of 9... I want him to SNATCH UP every last dam bird that comes within 3 feet of the water. I watched my dog dive down for better than 5 seconds today, and come up with a greenhead in his mouth. Ain't nothing little trained about that. That's all desire + training.

These breeders don't repeat breedings because the puppies don't sell, or because they've found another line to sell. After a while, any breeder has to change up his product a little, and with that change will come a new pitch to send your way. I'm not knocking any of the kennels listed, don't get me wrong there. I know Mr. Bill at Gator PT. and I know Mike Stewart at Wildrose. Both are great guys with their dogs and clients. They won't BS you about a dogs health, or his desire. But you have to watch out for the stereotypes given to a particular breed that are conjured up by random folks who think they've observed a population on a whole by merely seeing a few handfulls.

[goosebruce]

The point about not breeding a dog that doesn't throw the traits you want is EXACTLY what breeding is all about. It's exactly the reason it shouldn't be done by people who don't understand it, and it's exactly the reason I suggested repete breedings so you can look to see what a cross should produce. Thats as close as a generalization about breeding as you are going to get... to say labs of a different country of orgin are going to be X is way to broad of statement to be accurate, and to further confuse misbehavior with genetics makes it even hairy.

The very book you suggested by milner is full of the ideology you speak of... And Mr Milner is a very big propent of the brit styles, and the brit temperment, and totally convinced of their breeding programs that have been supposedly imported here being the end all. Yet last year, he said he had a dog he felt 'needed' a collar, therefore it was 'geneticly' inferior... Now since he doesn't take dogs from the public anymore, that means it was a personal dog, and since he advocates all this crap, surely he follows it, the fact he had a geneticly inferior dog (his words, not mine) he was planning to get rid of surpirsed me. I'd still been cool with it, if he had responded to me when I asked if he torn up the papers, nutured the dog, and notifyed the dogs littermate of the defect... The guru of all this british gobblygook, and he can't answer a question that simple... He couldn't answer it, because what he through out there didn't make sense, and it didn't have any answer... Yet he writes a book 180 degrees from his first book, and folks buy it lock stock and barrel. He makes excuses for everything from popping (it shows a smart dog to him) to waiting until a dog is over 2 years old for it have birds, all the while knocking american training methods and dogs. Like i said, a good dog is a good dog, and I've had the pleasure of being around a lot of them from both sides of the pond. You'll never hear anyone with proven results bash another way, but the same can't be said vicea versa. My problem defienty isn't with brit labs, its with the unfounded 'hype' that goes along with them.

The average FTCH dog could not pass an intermediate level hunt test without addtional training. And they couldn't complete an upper level hunt test. Don't even think about a real american field trial. The queen may say they're a dog, but its still a long way from being what WE (american people) consider a trained hunting dog. I'm lucky enough that my training partner took 2 ftch dogs last year and got hunting retreviver championship titles, and upland hunter titles on them, and took both to the 3rd series of the canada grand, and one to the 4th series of the la grand... so I know the difference between their champions and ours, and I assure you, its as different as our tea. Genetics made those dogs good, not orgin. A good dog is a good dog, period.

The average upper level hunt test dog could smoke a ftch gig with the only addational work needed on no movement on the line what so ever.

Not trying to give you flack at all. Your opiion was well spoken, even if it's misguided (hehe). I used to think brit dogs couldn't cut it, because that was common held thought in my circles until my training partner showed what team tallyhoe could do. Then again, he could make a ferret look good fetching ducks. Once I spent some time around those 2, and the other couple dozen he's had in the last year, I began to see country of orgin means very little.... A good dog, is a good dog.

Lou, jr to seasoned to senior is the most logical step in the world. Seasoned marks are a wide double, much like most senior tests... But the water marks will be in water, where is it seems to me senior marks always land dry (but then again, I've only seen a few). Seasoned blinds are short, 40 yards, and run seperate from the marks... much eaiser than your average senior blind. Senior adds the honor, which is a good step to finished... Most of the akc crossover problems seem to be their young dogs can't swing with gun cause they are hooked on shots in gun station to turn dog, and most of the hrc crossover problems seem to be not talking to your pooch.

Finished to master makes sense for several reasons. You get your birds, no matter what. A lot more tests, so your not driving 150 miles for maybe one series. You'll see tests that are as long, and then you'll see one much shorter than what you'll see in master. Master marks seem to have more concept in them, but you're seeing more and more in finished, and blinds are hard to tell from test to test with either program. Seems either one can have cheese, or dog eaters based on judges and terrain. 2 tests in one weekend compared to one is also nice too. A dog ready for masters is ready for finished, with the only thing I'd say to work on is dog working with more hunting type gimmicks (we've run out of boats, blinds, coffins, tree stands, etc....). With more tests and more chances, you see an average ch dog isn't probably as talented as your average mh dog, but you can find some judges that will give you all you want no matter what dog you brought.

With such limited tests in our area, and a plate full already, we simply don't go to akc events. I think I've seen 5 ever, and only ran in one, and it was a fun gig. We ran hrc tests in 7 states and canada last year, from march to nov, and it simply doesn't leave time to pursue anything else. We start with an upland test 3rd week of feburary, and will be running, or training every weekend until the end of may... Always thought it'd be great to spend a month running akc gimmick set ups and go try it, but quite frankly, we ain't got a month to play with it. Seems like every akc test I've been too, is a GREAT series or two, followed by something you go, what the hell??? Spend a weekend to have it come down to a judge with nothing to hold him back about what he sets up, and the trade off just doesn't seem worth it to me, personally. I do have an akc judge that I think the world of his tests, he sets up the hardest $#!+ I have ever seen, fair, but hard, and someday I'll go run his tests cause I like his tests. Ribbons and titles don't mean that much to me, even though I got some of both... but smashing one of his tests would be great. Personally, i don't think the dogs care one way or another if its an orange ribbon, or another color, they are only in it for the birds. Thats my little narrow take on akc, take it for what it's worth (which is not much!).

Yeah josh, THAT'S why you don't run field trials. BWHAHHAHAHAHA. travis

[injun_23]

Guys.......Thanks. Some might be put off by the long involved posts but you gave me exactly what I was looking for. All of you obviously get a tremendous amount of pleasure from not only the work performed by your dogs but also the training and developing it to its full potential. Then you get an eager hunting buddy and companion in the deal as well. Thats the reason I asked for input. Sounds like the retriever club is a way to enjoy Labs all year long and extend (or anticipate) the hunting season in the process. I am pretty comfortable that a Lab can be a year round companion, project and family dog now. Great Hunting!
the INJUN