I don't mind anyone trying to instill some good teachings into their dog, but, for ME, my duck blind isn't the place to teach.... the back yard is. IMHO, breaking with the shot is just as unacceptable as before the shot. I don't want my dogs ear out in front of the muzzle-blast of any shotgun, let alone someone "skillet-shooting" a duck. What if you fire one shot, and then they circle back, and you got a shot on 3 more ducks? Your dog has already broke with the first shot.... A break is a break is a break is a break is a break. Whether its 3 feet or 30 yards, a break is a break, and its dangerous for hunting. Sometimes folks don't realize just how dangerous it is, until its too late. Sometimes they are willing to tolerate it, until its too late. EVERYTIME, they wish they'd have done something about it ONCE its too late. You can't undo something that tramatic, so the best thing to do, is prevent it from the get-go.
Teaching "sit to a whistle" is the best ideal, period. All it involves, is walking a few hundred-thousand miles in the yard with your dog, and teaching him sit and incorporating a whistle blast in with the command. Before long, you can leave out "sit" and just toot the whistle. I've got dogs that you could plow field rows with their underside, because they have a respect for that whistle blast, and don't wish to get a tap on the rear from my "healing stick" again.
Like i said, teaching and training the sit-whistle is great for your benefit. Next, teach your dog how to stay seated when birds are flying in and being shot. Put out a 5 gallon bucket, sit on it, and get your dog at heal. Get some buddies to throw you some marks, shot blanks at them, and if the dog breaks, stop him with the rope that you've put around his neck, and put him in his kennel. Do not let him have the success of completing the retrieve when he's broke. Allow him some time to think it over, and then get him back out, and try it again. Same deal; if he breaks, put him up, and if he's steady, let him retrieve the mark.
You can teach steadiness without a collar if you have the patience. I personally don't, but then again, I'm not new to the routine.... the best advice I can ever give, is to buy a DOGTRA e-collar, take the instructional tape, and totally wear out your VCR watching it over and over and over.... Jim and Phyllis Dobbs are very intelligent peoples with their product, and their teachings will better your efforts ten fold....
Shock Collars
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Bobby Williams
- Veteran
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2001 12:01 am
- Location: Greensboro,Alabama
River hunter join a local Retriever club. Be it AKC or HRC and go to training days and you will find you are not the only one that has a breaking problem. There are a number of ways to treat this problem and one will fit your dog. A shock collar is NOT a quick fix for anything. A dog must be collar condition first.
Lott for President
Lott for President
old man bobby
old man bobby is right.... a dog must be "collar conditioned" meaning that he's been taught something and then shown what a correction is.... and not just turning his toenails inside-out with the highest setting from the get-go. Take bobby for example: Central Alabama HRC tried to keep him under control, so they strapped 3 Tritronics collars and one Dogtra collar around his neck, gave his grandson Ben the remote, and bet Ben that the battery would run down before Bobby would listen....
never did hear who won the bet, but i did see that bobby had a little more spring in his step. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....
never did hear who won the bet, but i did see that bobby had a little more spring in his step. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....
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goosebruce
- Duck South Addict
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- Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 12:01 am
- Location: here
Ecollars aren't something to 'go to' or a place for a 'fix'. Ecollars are part of a complete training program. Resorting to a collar for your failure is not fair on the dog, or is going to give good results.
I'm not being hard on you. I'm being fair to your dog.
If your dog has a breaking problem, YOU have failed. Dogs don't have problems, their owners/trainers do. Shocking the "@#$%#" outta a dog for something you caused is an unfair as it gets. letting it break on 12 foot of rope is a close second.
If you have never taught your dog it can't break, how could it know? And how can you correct a dog fairly for something it doesn't know. You can't.
Your dog breaks because he doesn't know sit. Oh he might have an ideal of what sit means, but he doesn't have an obligation to do it, nor does he understand the consequences of not doing it.
Teach your dog sit. You won't teach this in a duck blind. Your dog MUST understand SIT until released, for any postive action to happen. Think about what I said. Teach him that is he SITS, until released, that the action he wants will happen.
Go let dog out of kennel... Walk up to kennel, say SIT. Dog will look at you like your crazy. Don't move, don't say it again. He wants out, he will SIT. Once he sits, open door, and if he busts out, slam door. Once he sits, and doesnt move when you open door, release him with OK (not good, good is a word to tell him hes doing good, not tell him hes through) and let him exit.
Feed dog. Dogs hungry, wants to eat, right. Bowl of food, you standing over dog. SIT. Once again, dog looks at you like you are crazy. He will eventually sit. When he does, put food down. If he moves, pick bowl up and repete SIT. Once he wont move off that sit when you put food down, he gets food.
In the yard with a bumper. Hes bounching, wanting you to throw it. SIT. WTF? dog looks at you.... He will sit, once he figgers out, good things ONLY happen after complience. Throw bumper, and if he breaks, stop him with check cord. Once he sits, 100%, doesn't move, he gets bumper.
You see, dog is correcting himself. He doesn't get out, food, or bumper, until he complies. You'll soon see a dog that SITS, out of habit. He relaizes, his posture dictates what happens.
And dog NEVER gets a retreive, food, through a door, nothing, unless sit is complied with. Beauty of this is, you get a dozen sits in a day, doing normal day to day stuff without ever 'training' per say.
If dog moves, you pull the plug.
You build up steadyness. You don't go from hand tossed bumpers in the yard, to 50 ducks on the water quacking.... You build it up. SIT in a new place is tougher. SIT with other dogs is tougher. SIT with a shot is tougher. SIT with birds is tougher. SIT with close birds from hidden thrower is tougher.... You see where I'm going. You've changed the dogs attitude, you taught him that SIT results in good things happening. So you gradually build him up to tougher tasks. Sure you can 'test' his SIT by jumping ahead, and you will end up having to bust his ass, and setting yourself back.
Once a dog gets the ideal, the best way to steady a dog is with another dog. The dog that doesn't move, gets the retreive. Dog soon learns, if I move, I'm outta luck.
Dogs that make noise is tough. Because sometimes they don't relize they do it, and a lot of times a collar correction makes it worst, not better. HUSH (or quiet, whutever you use) every single time dog makes noise. At house, in truck, in blind, in training etc. Never is a noisey dog allowed to retreive, or let out of a kennel, ot whatever he wants thats making him whine. You just read how to let a dog steady himself by his actions resulting in a good behavior... Giving in to a whining dog is doing the opposite. He whines, you comply. Every time the dog makes noise... he is scolding, eyeball to eyeball, and denied the action he wants.
As far as some of the comments above... my dog breaks to shot, but not to birds landing? Not yet. He either will, or get his head blown off before that. A jump on a cripple? No way. The few seconds he gains, is more than lost on his abilty to mark while running, or the chances of mutiple marks actually being the cripple. Thats nothing more than an excuse for $#!+ dog work, and if it hasn't caused a problem yet, it will. It's unsafe, unless you ONLY hunt alone, for your dog and your guests. It may not bother you, and if it doesn't thats fine. But passing it off as acceptable dog advice is suspect at best, dogs should sit until told to do otherwise.
Squirting lemon juice in a dogs mouth will probably make him be quiet. And itd add to a glass of ice tea! hehe. But the duck blind isn't a place for that, all around training and condtioning is.
Some dogs vocalize on a very small correction, and some don't vocalize at all. Read your dog, know your dog. Always better to be less than needed, than more than needed. An ill timed correction, thats too hot, can sure make even a condtioned dog jump to wrong conclusions.
If I only had one way to train basics and yardwork, it'd be a pinch collar and heeling stick. Ecollars are wonderful, but they are long range corrections. Yard work, to me at least, is more personal, and with a heeling stick I can tap whatever part of the body needs correction. Under the jaw for a hold correction, on the rump for a sit, across the chest for a creep, etc... Seems to be very clear to a dog, and translates to a nick from the collar very easy when you condtion a dog to it. travis
I'm not being hard on you. I'm being fair to your dog.
If your dog has a breaking problem, YOU have failed. Dogs don't have problems, their owners/trainers do. Shocking the "@#$%#" outta a dog for something you caused is an unfair as it gets. letting it break on 12 foot of rope is a close second.
If you have never taught your dog it can't break, how could it know? And how can you correct a dog fairly for something it doesn't know. You can't.
Your dog breaks because he doesn't know sit. Oh he might have an ideal of what sit means, but he doesn't have an obligation to do it, nor does he understand the consequences of not doing it.
Teach your dog sit. You won't teach this in a duck blind. Your dog MUST understand SIT until released, for any postive action to happen. Think about what I said. Teach him that is he SITS, until released, that the action he wants will happen.
Go let dog out of kennel... Walk up to kennel, say SIT. Dog will look at you like your crazy. Don't move, don't say it again. He wants out, he will SIT. Once he sits, open door, and if he busts out, slam door. Once he sits, and doesnt move when you open door, release him with OK (not good, good is a word to tell him hes doing good, not tell him hes through) and let him exit.
Feed dog. Dogs hungry, wants to eat, right. Bowl of food, you standing over dog. SIT. Once again, dog looks at you like you are crazy. He will eventually sit. When he does, put food down. If he moves, pick bowl up and repete SIT. Once he wont move off that sit when you put food down, he gets food.
In the yard with a bumper. Hes bounching, wanting you to throw it. SIT. WTF? dog looks at you.... He will sit, once he figgers out, good things ONLY happen after complience. Throw bumper, and if he breaks, stop him with check cord. Once he sits, 100%, doesn't move, he gets bumper.
You see, dog is correcting himself. He doesn't get out, food, or bumper, until he complies. You'll soon see a dog that SITS, out of habit. He relaizes, his posture dictates what happens.
And dog NEVER gets a retreive, food, through a door, nothing, unless sit is complied with. Beauty of this is, you get a dozen sits in a day, doing normal day to day stuff without ever 'training' per say.
If dog moves, you pull the plug.
You build up steadyness. You don't go from hand tossed bumpers in the yard, to 50 ducks on the water quacking.... You build it up. SIT in a new place is tougher. SIT with other dogs is tougher. SIT with a shot is tougher. SIT with birds is tougher. SIT with close birds from hidden thrower is tougher.... You see where I'm going. You've changed the dogs attitude, you taught him that SIT results in good things happening. So you gradually build him up to tougher tasks. Sure you can 'test' his SIT by jumping ahead, and you will end up having to bust his ass, and setting yourself back.
Once a dog gets the ideal, the best way to steady a dog is with another dog. The dog that doesn't move, gets the retreive. Dog soon learns, if I move, I'm outta luck.
Dogs that make noise is tough. Because sometimes they don't relize they do it, and a lot of times a collar correction makes it worst, not better. HUSH (or quiet, whutever you use) every single time dog makes noise. At house, in truck, in blind, in training etc. Never is a noisey dog allowed to retreive, or let out of a kennel, ot whatever he wants thats making him whine. You just read how to let a dog steady himself by his actions resulting in a good behavior... Giving in to a whining dog is doing the opposite. He whines, you comply. Every time the dog makes noise... he is scolding, eyeball to eyeball, and denied the action he wants.
As far as some of the comments above... my dog breaks to shot, but not to birds landing? Not yet. He either will, or get his head blown off before that. A jump on a cripple? No way. The few seconds he gains, is more than lost on his abilty to mark while running, or the chances of mutiple marks actually being the cripple. Thats nothing more than an excuse for $#!+ dog work, and if it hasn't caused a problem yet, it will. It's unsafe, unless you ONLY hunt alone, for your dog and your guests. It may not bother you, and if it doesn't thats fine. But passing it off as acceptable dog advice is suspect at best, dogs should sit until told to do otherwise.
Squirting lemon juice in a dogs mouth will probably make him be quiet. And itd add to a glass of ice tea! hehe. But the duck blind isn't a place for that, all around training and condtioning is.
Some dogs vocalize on a very small correction, and some don't vocalize at all. Read your dog, know your dog. Always better to be less than needed, than more than needed. An ill timed correction, thats too hot, can sure make even a condtioned dog jump to wrong conclusions.
If I only had one way to train basics and yardwork, it'd be a pinch collar and heeling stick. Ecollars are wonderful, but they are long range corrections. Yard work, to me at least, is more personal, and with a heeling stick I can tap whatever part of the body needs correction. Under the jaw for a hold correction, on the rump for a sit, across the chest for a creep, etc... Seems to be very clear to a dog, and translates to a nick from the collar very easy when you condtion a dog to it. travis
training
I got some kennel spots open..... send me your dog for a couple months, and we'll go from there. If you don't have the time or experience with retriever training, you'll be more than satisfied with your dawg when you get him right! Nothing beats great dog work. Nothing.
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damnyankee
- Veteran
- Posts: 402
- Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 12:01 am
- Location: Central, IL
My dog knows sit and will not break throwing a 1000 dummies. Added the gun won't break throwing a 1000 dummies w/ a gun blast. Even got her to the point where I can say any word real excited, tap her on the head and she still wouldn't break until she got the command.
But when we get to the blind and she sees that duck hit the water she was gone.
You see my problem was at home with dummies, or even in the blind with dummies she was doing everything I asked. I couldn't get her to " mess up".
While the rope may not be the most popular way or even a good way, for some. The thought of her running out of the pit and getting shot in the face by a hunter was worse.
As much as I hate to agree w/GB everything he said about sit is right on. But for some reason this dog just never got the idea of waiting for the command when we were hunting.
I tried everything from watching other dogs to walking her back to the truck and kenneling her when she broke. But nothing worked. Now I know enough to know that yes the problem lied somewhere in what I was or wasn't doing. I came here 2 years ago asking for help with this problem and someone suggested the rope as a last resort. Well it came to that and it worked.
But when we get to the blind and she sees that duck hit the water she was gone.
You see my problem was at home with dummies, or even in the blind with dummies she was doing everything I asked. I couldn't get her to " mess up".
While the rope may not be the most popular way or even a good way, for some. The thought of her running out of the pit and getting shot in the face by a hunter was worse.
As much as I hate to agree w/GB everything he said about sit is right on. But for some reason this dog just never got the idea of waiting for the command when we were hunting.
I tried everything from watching other dogs to walking her back to the truck and kenneling her when she broke. But nothing worked. Now I know enough to know that yes the problem lied somewhere in what I was or wasn't doing. I came here 2 years ago asking for help with this problem and someone suggested the rope as a last resort. Well it came to that and it worked.
I'm a Cubs fan and a duck hunter..maybe next year...saying maybe next year in May makes for a long year........
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River Hunter
- Veteran
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- Location: somewhere on the river
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sportsman450
- Duck South Addict
- Posts: 1864
- Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2002 6:03 pm
- Location: DAVIS GROCERY
damnyankee wrote: I came here 2 years ago asking for help with this problem and someone suggested the rope as a last resort. Well it came to that and it worked.
And when your dog is 10 years old and can't walk because of damage caused by the shock to it's neck,hopefully you'll be sorry for what you did.
I have seen this first hand.At least talk to your vet before you do this to your dog.This is VERY BAD advice,and I'm sure your vet will agree.
sportsman
"That's Just My Opinion,I Could Be Wrong" - Dennis Miller
"That's Just My Opinion,I Could Be Wrong" - Dennis Miller
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goosebruce
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There is quiet a difference between tieing a dog in (which is a wonderful ideal on a dog that isn't steadyed) and giving him 12 foot of rope to let him yank himself off his feet. One is forcing the correct behavior by giving no choice, the other is setting a dog up to possibly hurt himself. Setting a dog up for a correction should always be the last card played, and should never be done because it's the easiest on you, and certainly shouldnt risk the dog's well being. I think dy is talking about tieing his dog up, not the run and jerk method.
Dog's tracheas are easily damaged. I've read studies on trach damage dogs that advocated a pinch collar over a choke collar for just that reason. Now I can't imagine having to use either one hard enough to cause damage, but it certainly has happened if someone spent the cheese to follow 200 dogs for their entire lives (it was like european guard dogs or something of that sort). travis
Dog's tracheas are easily damaged. I've read studies on trach damage dogs that advocated a pinch collar over a choke collar for just that reason. Now I can't imagine having to use either one hard enough to cause damage, but it certainly has happened if someone spent the cheese to follow 200 dogs for their entire lives (it was like european guard dogs or something of that sort). travis
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sportsman450
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goosebruce wrote:I think dy is talking about tieing his dog up, not the run and jerk method.
Goose-I agree with your post,except for the line above.He has made no further posts since the one in which he talked about "cartwheeling" his dog.
sportsman
"That's Just My Opinion,I Could Be Wrong" - Dennis Miller
"That's Just My Opinion,I Could Be Wrong" - Dennis Miller
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River Hunter
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- Location: somewhere on the river
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damnyankee
- Veteran
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- Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 12:01 am
- Location: Central, IL
Uh I think I made one explaining why I used the rope and I think you replied you were looking forward to the day she can't walk so I can regret doing it.
I was going to post Thanks for the warm wishes but decided since it's the Holidays I was going to be quiet. I even agreed w/GB to stay in the spirit of the Holiday.
I probably should have made it clear in the beginning that the rope was the last ditch effort for the dog. I didn't even consider someone would try to "teach" their dog the meaning of sit and stay by tieing a rope to them from the beginning.
I was going to post Thanks for the warm wishes but decided since it's the Holidays I was going to be quiet. I even agreed w/GB to stay in the spirit of the Holiday.
I probably should have made it clear in the beginning that the rope was the last ditch effort for the dog. I didn't even consider someone would try to "teach" their dog the meaning of sit and stay by tieing a rope to them from the beginning.
I'm a Cubs fan and a duck hunter..maybe next year...saying maybe next year in May makes for a long year........
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sportsman450
- Duck South Addict
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- Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2002 6:03 pm
- Location: DAVIS GROCERY
damnyankee wrote:Uh I think I made one explaining why I used the rope and I think you replied you were looking forward to the day she can't walk so I can regret doing it.
I probably should have made it clear in the beginning that the rope was the last ditch effort for the dog.
First,I was just correcting Goose when he said he didn't think you were refering to the jerk method,and quoted your 2nd post to do so.
Second,I never said I was looking forward to the day your dog couldn't walk.What I did say was that I hope YOU'RE SORRY when it happens!
Finally,there is no way you can justify,rationalize,or as you put it explain taking this kind of chance with a dog's health.It's bad enough that you do it yourself,but to suggest it to others is deplorable!
sportsman
"That's Just My Opinion,I Could Be Wrong" - Dennis Miller
"That's Just My Opinion,I Could Be Wrong" - Dennis Miller
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goosebruce
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Dam dude.... I misquoted someone. Sorry...hope ya'll don't all turn in your goosebruce fan club secret decoder rings over it!
I think the point EVERYONE is trying to make is, you can hurt your dog by letting him run 10 foot and jerk himself off the ground. Tie him on a short lead until you have trained your dog to the point of steadyness that you KNOW he wont break.
BTW, that point is, way past whut most of you think. A dog does something bad and gets away with it, its a habit. A dog to do something good and it be a habit, it needs to do it a couple hundred times. Thats the $#!+ part of dogs. Untie him too soon, and you just took a major step backwards.
I like it when they splash water on my dog personally. travis
I think the point EVERYONE is trying to make is, you can hurt your dog by letting him run 10 foot and jerk himself off the ground. Tie him on a short lead until you have trained your dog to the point of steadyness that you KNOW he wont break.
BTW, that point is, way past whut most of you think. A dog does something bad and gets away with it, its a habit. A dog to do something good and it be a habit, it needs to do it a couple hundred times. Thats the $#!+ part of dogs. Untie him too soon, and you just took a major step backwards.
I like it when they splash water on my dog personally. travis
dawg days
oh the joys of clearity in dawg training advice.... surprised there ain't been more of the usual "total retriever" bits... have yet to view a Lardy tape for more than 2 minutes, but i'm sure they don't approach this topic within a 20 mile distance. This kind of help is often best received from places like this.
As goose said, each additional peice of the pie brings about its own inalienable degree of complexity to your dog. I would advise to TEACH the manners YOU desire, teach it some more, and then some more, TRAIN them for some scenario's, and then TEST the dog. Set her up to fail and administer a correction to her. Not necessarily breaking her vocals with a rope, or screwing her in the ground with an ecollar... these methods temporarily to scare the living daylights out of your dog. A short check cord or lead, or a low pressure nick from an ecollar will suffice to show that you are not happy with their actions. And again as goose said, the follow up on your behalf is key to their mindset. If you allow the continuance of the game with their not complying with your teachings, then they will expect to act in the same manner again.
As i said above, set your dog up to fail once you've instilled the desired traits. Go to some ducky looking places, and pitch her some marks with actual ducks that are sooo close that they splash water on her when they hit. Fire some shots over her.... move the marks around.... change venues.... switch back to dummies for a long while and then surprise her with a fresh duck (to perk her back up).... if she moves, correct her.
Spend time with your dog in your blind just sitting there watching the black birds and dove fly.... show her that its cool just to sit there.... toss her some marks from side to side (doesn't have to be far away) and work on swinging/following the gun from inside your blind or a bucket. Train with robo's and quiver magnets all over the place while using easy "in the dekes" marks so she doesn't have to work too hard to follow the marks. The added action should give her the urge, and with enough time, she'll get used to seeing the initial sites.
I've drove and hour an a half to my duck blind just to work my dog from the environment he'll be hunting in. and buddy, its paid off. While the older "more advanced" dogs are spinning circles in the decoys checking them out, chasing robo's, and trying to eat quiver magnets, my dog is passing right thru them and snatching up swimming cripples at 200 yards... I'm not that great a shot, so that's a real plus!!
As goose said, each additional peice of the pie brings about its own inalienable degree of complexity to your dog. I would advise to TEACH the manners YOU desire, teach it some more, and then some more, TRAIN them for some scenario's, and then TEST the dog. Set her up to fail and administer a correction to her. Not necessarily breaking her vocals with a rope, or screwing her in the ground with an ecollar... these methods temporarily to scare the living daylights out of your dog. A short check cord or lead, or a low pressure nick from an ecollar will suffice to show that you are not happy with their actions. And again as goose said, the follow up on your behalf is key to their mindset. If you allow the continuance of the game with their not complying with your teachings, then they will expect to act in the same manner again.
As i said above, set your dog up to fail once you've instilled the desired traits. Go to some ducky looking places, and pitch her some marks with actual ducks that are sooo close that they splash water on her when they hit. Fire some shots over her.... move the marks around.... change venues.... switch back to dummies for a long while and then surprise her with a fresh duck (to perk her back up).... if she moves, correct her.
Spend time with your dog in your blind just sitting there watching the black birds and dove fly.... show her that its cool just to sit there.... toss her some marks from side to side (doesn't have to be far away) and work on swinging/following the gun from inside your blind or a bucket. Train with robo's and quiver magnets all over the place while using easy "in the dekes" marks so she doesn't have to work too hard to follow the marks. The added action should give her the urge, and with enough time, she'll get used to seeing the initial sites.
I've drove and hour an a half to my duck blind just to work my dog from the environment he'll be hunting in. and buddy, its paid off. While the older "more advanced" dogs are spinning circles in the decoys checking them out, chasing robo's, and trying to eat quiver magnets, my dog is passing right thru them and snatching up swimming cripples at 200 yards... I'm not that great a shot, so that's a real plus!!
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