steel shot? why?

[GulfCoast]

Yo Goose: No harm, no foul. You are right, hunters cripple birds, not steel. I love to watch a GOOD dog work as much or more as the next guy. I wish I owned that one from the Coors light commercial that would bring you a beer on command. I might never leave the house.

[woundedduck]

i've got one question for you that has been driving me batty all day...

DO YOU PUT SPIKES IN TREES?

[woundedduck]

ive got one suggestion for the goose...duckhunting is a sport in which we all enjoy. in any kind of hunting you are going to have your little hangups. you will lose a deer every now and then....you will lose ducks dove squirrel rabbit coon.....you get the point....if you are REALLY AND TRUELLY so concerned about these birds.....QUIT HUNTING buddy! otherwise quit your bitching! people are going to do what they want to do...i personally hunt with steal and dont give a damn for lead....you cant tell stubborn people how to act.

[goosebruce]

Lemme git this straight... if someone cares about the environment, they should quit duck hunting?

Wow, what a thought provoaking post. Man, I see the light now. Thanks a lot.

I know it's not fair. You couldn't really understand most of this thread. It was about more than whut's yur favorite gun, or yur favorite bullet. Next time we have a serious discussion, I'll type slower and maybe you can keep up.

Go shoot a roadsign for me you stupid chucklehead. If you can't dicuss something intelligently, spend your time on the porn sights. travis

[Bustin' Ducks]

Hey Goose..Since your stuck on evertything being contaminated...Why dont we just drain the damned Mississippi River since it has all the pollution from tug boats, barges and all the crap that is drained into from the neighboring states...SHOULDNT THAT KILL A DUCK?? Oh and while your out kissin' somebodies ass about protectin' the environment...Do you pick up all your spent hulls/wads from your hunting area....Yeah right!!

[Vandal]

Goosebruce, or should I just call you by your real name "tree hugging liberal". Let me set the record straght for you son.

It was not the ammo manufacturers, it was all the tree hugging liberals that got lead outlawed. Lead if you haven't figured it out yet, is a naturally accuring metal found both above ground and below ground all over the earth.
Lead shot (ask any skeet/trap range operator) quickly sinks into almost all soils because of it's weight being heavier than the soil it has been shot over.

All this talk about eagles being found dead with lead poisoning has been said from alaska to florida, yet long before the introduction of steel shot the eagle population in this country had made an enormous comeback. Guess who said that it was lead shot causing all the death of ducks and eagles??? Does the Sierra club, Audubon society ring a bell??? These are all anti-hunter groups and it was they that are at the forefront of the legislation that killed lead shot.

If all duck hunters shot at ducks at 35 yards or less there would be a lot less cripples but that is like expecting everyone to obey the speed limit and we all know that does not happen. Consequently steel shot is responsible for many more cripples than lead, ask any game and fish warden if they think steel is a great alternative for ducks with relation to cripple ratios and they will tell you that steel is much more inferior with many more cripples. My wife's uncle was game and fish and he said steel was responsible for many more cripples than lead, he was an advid duck hunter (passed on now) and detested steel.

That being said, I have learned to shoot steel very effectively, but I shoot 99% of my birds at 25-30 yards or less or I let em pass. I have seen a bird right in the middle of my pattern, with feathers and guts flying out of the other side of him, fly off to die where I could not retrieve him, I never had that experience with lead.

Goosebruce I got one question for you, who did you vote for in the last presidential election, Gore or Bush???

[goosebruce]

You guys don't get a thing do you? Busting ducks, you ought to be a mad mother "@#$%#" over the shape of the lower mississippi river. Instead, your not smart enough to even realize water shouldn't make fish not safe to eat or be safe to swim in. Think for yourself for a change. Why is the water "@#$%#" up? It becasue people like you don't care enough to say, NO, thats not right. It doesn't have to be. It hasn't always been, and God willing, it won't always be.
Kissin someones ass? Obivously you don't know me very well.

Vandel, most game wardens are hard working guys. None are biologists. They aren't experts on anything except their profession. They are just as likely as your dumb ass to sit around and repete gossip, for things they don't know. Doesn't make them bad, no more than it does you. Just makes you wrong. Typically, when you are going to 'set the record straight' on something sciencetific you might want better sources than trap range operators and game wardens. The studies are there, several good ones have been listed in this thread. Either you choose to be ignorant of good common sense, or you haven't been paying attention.

One last time conspricey guys, and think about it. IF the government was in co-hoots with ammo compaines to make you buy more expensive steel shoot, wouldn't it have been eaiser to just raise the price of shells? IF the anti's decided lead killed all these birds and pulled a fast one past everyone, wouldn't they have tried to stop the advent of steel, and simply outlaw duck hunting in troubled areas? Pick either one of the conspricey theories and you can find half a dozen easier ways for them to do what they supposedly did.

If the anti's where that good, thatd have our unorganized, uninformed, un-unifed ass shut down already. When they do it, and they will judging from this thread, it will be one peice of ground at a time, over the stupidest reasons. They coulda hit a major lick on the lead posioning thing if they would have actually been behind it.

Lead is naturally occuring. So are a lot of other toxic things. DUH. How "@#$%#" stupid of a comment is that? Its naturally occuring, so it can't hurt me. Yeah, it's just damn near granola.

If lead pellets fall harmlessly on trap/skeet ranges, why do they have to reclaim the lead pellets? I know MSSA does it, and shelby farms has done it. Whut, they tree huggers too? Where do you think those lead pellets that make it through the dirt go smart feller? You think they go away? Are you that naivie? Out of sight, out of mind, can't hurt you? Sheeez. Guess you drain your motor oil into the gutter too, because after all, it goes away, right?

Politics. If you can't understand lead is toxic, you certainly can't understand poltics. But to answer your question, I voted for Bush. Wasn't thrilled about it, but he was the lesser of 2 evils. Of course, a republican president and a republican congress, means rape of the environment, just as a democrate president and democratic congress means your guns are in jeapordy. Ideal situation is where it's balanced, so they spend so much time "@#$%#" each other on non-issues, they don't do much screwing up of the world. Numbers skewed like now, you have little things slide by the uninformed, with big consequences. Like national lands being given to 'local' groups. Your national lands, forrests, and streams, given to local people to manage and take care of, without any checks or balances on it. Can't blame a dog for being a dog, just like you can't blame a logger for being a logger....but you don't leave the dog in the room with the Christmas turkey while your taking a $#!+ either, and thats exactly what Bush did last month. These are the exact kind of things I'm talking about... Anyone that considers themselves an outdoors person, ought to be a mad mother "@#$%#" their federal lands are in danger. Lands you have bought and paid for, and you keep the maintence up, sold out. And guess what, you aint heard a peep about it. Nobody mentioned it on here. You aint had a tailgate research session about it, have you? Hell no. And thats EXACTLY what i meant when i said. If hunters and fisherman cared anywhere near what they say they do, you'd see some folks rasing hell. They don't, and thats a crying "@#$%#" shame.
I'm a tree hugging liberal cause I care about the environment? No, I'm just a father, who really likes the outdoors, and thinks God has me on a hook about it. Afterall, he put the animals here for our USE and PROTECTION. Ya'll got the use part down, but never read any further.
Liberal? Well, since I only vote on things that benefit the environment, I don't think the label sticks. I think all polticans are crooks, and if a common man was sent, he'd be just as dirty in a few months. Only thing I care about are the ones that are gonna sell out our water, air, and lands, and take our guns. All the other stuff in the long run doesn't really matter, cause its a big game of big and take, and the working man is gonna get "@#$%#" one way or the other. I'd rather be screwed with the chance to enjoy the outdoors & not worry bout growing extra elbows or getting cancer from the air I breath.
The number one thnig folks ought to get out of this internet thing, is that the world is bigger than where you can drive. Those of you that might not agree with me, thats fine. Those of you that refuse to listen, are the very ones that when its too "@#$%#" up to go on are gonna say someone should have done something. It doesn't matter if its your guns, or it's a clean water act, or a farm bill. You need to be informed and make your own desiscions. You need to be a mad son-of-a-bitch when someone screws mother nature, for their own profit. You think I'm the enenmy, you've lost your mind. I don't own an ammo company, a chicken farm, an outdated factory, or a logging company. I'm not making a cent raping nature, at your expense, and laughing at you at the same time. I'm not trying to take away your guns, or your rights to kill thing. Your enemy, man, I'm just trying to get you to see who is, and see you ought to be a mad mofo at those that are. travis

[Bustin' Ducks]

LOL...GooseBruce..Your a bitch!! LOLOLOL A dumb one at that!!! Get a life and maybe try a woman....Tree Huggin' fag!!!!!!!!

[Vandal]

Goosebruce,

Try and have a rational conversation without saying the F word every other paragraph.

You have made some good points and it is clear that you are a passionate enviromentalist. Regardless, if lead was so bad for the enviroment, why then after being shot for decades were we not seeing the so called ill effects of it.

Unfortunately you have bought into the liberal idea that man is bad and enviroment is screwed up because of man. If you were around 30 years ago you would realize just how much better the enviroment is today than it was then, because of man, not because we all started shooting non toxic shot.

This is a big earth and duck hunters are a rare breed, probably not 1 in a 1,000. I just don't think a few hunters shooting lead was poisoning the enviroment, I do think that tree huggers over react and freak out whenever anyone disagrees with them. You pretty much fit the bill son.

The crap about eagles was contrived, it was not wide spread, but every body and their brother has heard the stories, where are these studies Bubba, that you speak of, I have never seen any. Biologists, hell most biologist I know are tree huggers and anti hunters. I would not rely on them to tell me about toxic shot, because most (not all) are already slanted that way.

You need to take a chill pill Bubba and settle down. Remember man is good, not bad. The minute I hear a liberal blaming man, I know what his true colors are.

[sportsman450]

Vandel, most game wardens are hard working guys. None are biologists. They aren't experts on anything except their profession.

One last time conspricey guys, and think about it. IF the government was in co-hoots with ammo compaines to make you buy more expensive steel shoot, wouldn't it have been eaiser to just raise the price of shells?

Lead is naturally occuring. So are a lot of other toxic things. DUH. How "@#$%#" stupid of a comment is that? Its naturally occuring, so it can't hurt me. Yeah, it's just damn near granola.

1)WRONG-Quite a few game wardens are in fact biologists.As long as you're spouting off about "facts",try to get them right.
2)NO-It would have been so obvious that even people like you could figure it out.
3)I'm no expert,but as an element,it doesn't seem like we could be putting more lead back into the environment than was there to begin with.

[Doc & Nash]

I have found this post very intresting, and have been able to view each side of the argument respectively. But the plain and simple fact is somebody somewhere spent millions of dollars on research to figure out that lead is some pretty bad stuff. Why not accept the facts for what they are. This $#!+ kills waterfowl and eventually could kill humans. How would any of ya'll like a good dose of lead poisioning from a big greenhead that ate one to many lead pellets.

At the beginning of the year I shot some heavy loads to compare them to the B&P steel shot that I have switched to, and found that both performed about the same the average # of ducks from a 10 ct. box with the B&P was 3 and with the Heavy shot it was 3.5. Know I do not know about ya'll but when I compare $2.99 a box to $12.99 that 1/2 of a duck ain't that important. As far as cripples, the best solution to that is to get a dog, and quit skybusting, and learn to shoot. There is no reason that when the ducks are over the well placed dekes that one shot well placed will always kill one duck, and that even goes for a 2 3/4" 20ga #4 steel. If you do not believe me, then prove me wrong.

The reason we have these 3" and 3 1/2" 12 & 10 ga because men especially hunters have big ego's and not only do we like to keep up with the "Jones" but we like to be better than them. I have hunted with some oldtimers that would still shoot a 28 ga if the shells had been available.

I guess what I am trying to say is, It ain't the load, the gun , the boat or the dog that caused a cripple, it us. And until we fix us then there are still going to be cripples that get lost.

[Bodean]

Bustin Ducks, Vandal, and Sportsman --

You are both full of crap on this issue and I suspect you know that is the case. Your name calling and unsubstantiated assertions on this topic speak volumes about your lack of any type of a conservation ethic and even more about your unbecoming character.

My name is Jefferson Dye, and I challenge you both to either post some substantiated evidence that lead is better for ducks and the environment or to take Goosebruce up on the lead pellet eating contest. I personnally will be interested in seeing your blood lead concentrations in a few months. Want to see some studies on what lead does to birds and to humans? Have you ever seen any such studies?

I bet you would short-change your children if given the opportunity. Your attitudes on lead shoot and the environment in general certainly indicate you short-change your future generations. It is very difficult to believe such ignorance continues to exist in an area so heavily altered in the last generation.

May the scales fall out of your eyes. Jefferson

[sportsman450]

Bustin Ducks, Vandal, and Sportsman --

You are both full of crap on this issue and I suspect you know that is the case. Your name calling and unsubstantiated assertions on this topic speak volumes about your lack of any type of a conservation ethic and even more about your unbecoming character.

jethro-First of all,you know nothing about my conservation ethic or character.Judging me based on my opinion about one issue seems a little closed minded to me.

Second,I don't recall calling anybody names.You and goose have,but not me.

Third,it is gooseboy who claims his opinions as fact,with no evidence to support them.

Finally,it's hard to take somebody seriously who can't count.Bustin Ducks,Vandal,and Sportsman,add up to three people.Twice you refered to these three as both,which you should know refers to two.Maybe you should have gone on to the 7th grade.

[goosebruce]

Gee vandel, I never figured anyone wif the moniker 'vandel' would mind the f wurd. I write the same way i talk, much as I'm guessing you do with the use of the word 'son' to me twice in 2 days. I took no offense by what is probably part of your everyday speech, much as you shouldn't by mine.
Yup, the air and water is in better shape than 30 years ago. But much worst than it was 60 years ago. But things are getting somewhat better, and it didn't happen by accident. Without folks giving a $#!+, it won't get any better, and in fact, will get worst.
Sportsman, for once you may be almost right. I used the word none, when i should have used most game wardens aren't biologists. Kudo's to you, you stuck around long enough to be right for a change. See, you're at least thinking now... bwhahahaha. Lead is a naturally occuring... but so is oil. You wouldn't spread oil around somewhere you where going to hunt or fish would you? So is mercury... So is hundreds of other things that occur in nature, that shouldn't be spread around, espeically for no good reason. For the last time dude, there are 2 different conspricy therioes being touted here... antis did it and ammo compaines did it... Doesn't that seem a little weird to you?

Most biologists are tree huggers? The ones I've hunted with aren't. In fact, every one I've meet, talked with, or rapped on the net with are hunters. Sure, I bet a lot of them aren't. But I bet a larger percentage of them are hunters than the general population is. One of ya'll say most gw's are biologists, then another one of ya'll say biologists are tree huggers. Which is it?

Bustin ducks, once again, you add so much to this discussion. Hey, if your stupid and you know it, open your mouth! travis

[Bodean]

Sportsman --

I made a mistake in including your name in my last post. No, I do not see any name calling on your part. I apologize for the mistake. The message was intended for Vandal and Bustin Ducks, hence the "both".

There is a fine line between judging a character and calling one into question. Certainly, I do not know any of these folks posting but I have read enough in this thread to make me wonder about two of the contributors. I tend to look for the best in people, but as you stated, this thread is only a snapshot. It is not a pretty snapshot.

At least these guys could go find some evidence to the contrary lead shot that is more than scuttlebutt. How about checking with the lead smelting industry?

Jefferson