steel shot? why?

[Super-X]

The goose is loose Preach on brother - you sho said a mouthfull, and I'd have to agree for the most part.

[mallardhunter]

I started duck hunting with lead, then converted to steel. I was hunting one of the places that first mandated steel in the late '70's or early '80's. The early steel was terrible; today's steel is vastly improved. Steel was mandated because lead is toxic, poisonous - like arsenic or mercury.. Ducks pick up lead shot larger than #6 and die by using it as grit in their craw. Lead #6 and smaller is not a factor as ducks don't use it for craw-grit. This is why in most (but not all) places you can still shoot doves, quail, rabbits, etc. with lead shot. I've hunted doves with steel (#6) and it kills 'em stone dead - if they're hit. Has to do with hunter accuracy, not the substance shot.

Price? Early steel was way more expensive than it is today. Steel has come down in price.
Lead decomposes in six years? If anyone believes this, I've got some old lead shells that are at least 25 years old. I'll let you get out to 40 yards and shoot you with it. You tell me if it was decomposed.

Cripples? We (as duck hunters in general) cripple ducks because we can't hit well. With lead, many hunters tried shots that were out of range of their abilities and crippled ducks. With steel, hunters still try shots that are out of range of their abilities and cripple ducks. The distance may have changed slightly, but the abilities of the hunters to accurately shoot has not, and until hunters quit taking shots that are out of range, we will still cripple ducks. The other factors in not being able to hit with steel are that many hunters are living in the past, ignoring all of the data on how to upgrade to steel. If you are still shooting that 30-inch full choke gun, you are living in the past. Switch to an improved cylinder or a modified and your accuracy will magically improve. Many hunters shoot the same size steel that they shot with lead (#4's for example). Switch up two shot sizes and your accuracy will magically improve.

Steel shot kills ducks dead, stone dead without a wiggle IF you hit 'em (and they're in range! To hit 'em, learn to get 'em in closer before you shoot. Become a better hunter, a better caller, learn to set decoys better, hide better, stay still, and most importantly, learn patience so that you wait for the ducks to get in range (less than 40 yards) or don't shoot.

Sunnylab, make sure your Dad switched to a more open choke than he shot with lead, and make sure he isn't shooting the same shot size steel than he did with lead.
Hillhunter, we don't need a more effective shot, we need to learn to be better hunters.
Goosebruce, you da man!
Greenhead22, you probably just missed. That's why the doves and squirrels laughed. What shot sizes were you shooting? I guarantee you that steel will kill geese, ducks, squirrels and doves stone dead.
Sportsman450, lead kills for years. One lead shotshell blown over the landscape has the capacity to kill many ducks for years after it was sprayed over the land (or water). It doesn't take but a couple of ingested pellets to kill. If you're seeing a lot of cripples with steel follow the suggestions to stop that.

Here's how to make steel shot work:
1. Shoot a larger shot size with steel than you did with lead. IMHO, #3's are the smallest shot size to use for ducks, #2's smallest for geese (and will kill giant Canada geese graveyard dead IF they are in range and are hit!).
2. Shoot a more open choke with steel. Anything from cylinder bore to modified is useful for steel. A full choke is like shooting a rifle at 'em.
3. Become a better hunter by learning how to call better, set decoys better, hide better, be still and develop the patience to let 'em work and get in closer before you shoot.
4. Pattern your gun with not only the shot size, but the exact shell you intend to shoot. When you find a good pattern, shoot that shell in that gun with that choke.

[Wildfowler]

Naive me wanted to beleive it what was said several months ago. Here's something that I found on this subject:

http://www.cws-scf.ec.gc.ca/hww-fap/hww ... =86&lang=e

Lead shot and sinkers generally take decades to break down in the environment.

I don't have a problem with today's steel shot. Went Teal hunting one time with a box of 1 oz #6, and #7. There were no Teal, but plenty of dove. I had no choice but to dove hunt with the steel.

No trouble killing dove at good ranges. 45 - 50 yards in several instances. Though, I'm not going to advocate banning lead shot for other applications. I won't feel inadequate if they do. It works just fine for me.

[the doctor]

ELVIS IS DEAD?

great post goose kind a like sittin in a virtual duck blind

i didnt always agree with things my father said but i believe it was mark twain that said ' the older i got, suddenly the smarter he became'
(hope i didnt butcher that too bad)

he was avery active conservationist and involved in many environmental issues (i have files and files of information about the yazoo river basin, his main project) he taught me to question things but abide by the rules that were in place and that they were in place for a reason
the truth is as duck hunters we are all forced to be environmentally aware to some degree, some of us more than others

your points are well taken and agreed with
if we dont support and protect what we hold dear, it will be taken from us

glad to know there are some joe dirte' fans out there
you cant have no in your heart

td

[sportsman450]

[quote="goosebruce"]
So it's a great conspricy by the ammo companies to sell steel shot, right? It's all about the money. Well, if thats the case, then why spend all this money developing better loads? Bismuth, tungstin, and heavishot? [/quote]

Check the prices of those "better loads" and you'll have the answer.Thank you for furthering my point about financial motivation.

You do have some interesting thoughts about lead's affect on the ecology in general.They are thought provoking.

As for as lead decomposing is concerned,I don't know a dern thing,but the analagy about old shells was a bad one(whoever made it).Those shells had been stored in a controlled environment and not exposed to the elements.Leave them outside in the weather for 6 years and you can try to shoot them at me all you want.

[sportsman450]

sorry

[h2o_dog]

Hey Goose,
Me and you agree 99.9% of the time, but I have my doubts about lead being as toxic as you (and the gov't) claim. Few folks prior to 1970 knew that lead was toxic, and lead was in a LOT of stuff. I think someone would have figured it out a long time ago if this naturally occurring element was that lethal. Lead is not Uranium.

No, I don't want my kids eating paint peelings that contain lead, but I assure you I've fished plenty of lead pellets out the bottom of my clean toilet over the years.

By the way, I don't mind shooting steel at ducks, and I agree that steel has greatly improved, and is quite effective if used properly. But banning lead across the board sticks in MY craw - particularly for non-waterfowl hunting and fishing weights for Pete's sake.

[webbmaster]

Remember, you are only using lead shot IF you get caught with lead shot

[goosebruce]

Oh my gosh wildfolwer, you mean they got to the canadains on this too? The us government, the canadian government, and the shotgun shell compaines all in cohoots to make sportsman 450 spend more on shells? You just wouldn't think they would care enough to go through all the trouble for a couple bucks a box on shells would you? Wonder how they split the profits? Sportsman, you got any info how 2 countries and half a dozen ammo compaines are splitting the profits from scamming you?

You see, this is called a falacy of logic. It SEEMS reasonable enough, until you sit down and think about it. You've all been told for 20 years the yanks did it, the shell compaines did it, some bleeding hart did it, and it SEEMED reasonable cause you had to pay more for $#!+ shells. You never thought about it, cause hey, why buck the system? Everyone loves a good bitch (ya'll know i do) and it's a lot easier to gripe and remember how it used to be. But if you honestly tell me you think ammo compaines got the government to ban lead so they could make more money on shells, Ill never argue with you again...cause your a lost cause. If it was the ammo compaines, why didn't they just raise their shotgun shell prices to steel levels? Wouldn't it been easier to price fix, than to price fix, fake studies, and convince 2 governments to go along with them?

When did the general public discover lead was toxic? I'm not sure. $#!+, you still can't get everyone to admit wrestling is fake and that smoking kills, that doesn't make either one of them less than what they are.
I do know that california had a study on lead posioning when Regan was governor, that reccomened banning lead shot for the sake of the birds and the environment. And that it didn't happen until after Regan was presdient 20 years later, so I have a hard time beliving it was profit driven. The people in the know knew a long time before the average joe knew... There wasn't an internet. Only mags where national publications, and they've never been educational not cutting edge. How could people have known? Who would spread the word? A governement that didn't care to begin with?

Want to talk about economic & lead? Do you have any ideal why lead was used in various products to begin with? Paint, gas, pellets, pipes? Cause it was cheap. Lead was the cheapest way to make gas that wouldn't ping, because it resists detetantion. You where told, and it was general knowledge, that lead lubricated valve seats. $#!+. Lead never lubricated ANYTHING. Your chair is squeeking, do you grab some lead to lube it? Nope. Valve seat burned without lead, because combustion temps got too high, from predetnation. Even in the leaded gas muscle car days, the baddest $#!+ you could buy was white gas... Which was premium unleaded... And there was never a valve seat one burnt from that. Leaded gas, something added to gas, was cheaper than gas without it. Now if there was ever a company/government conspriecy thing, it would have been the oil compaines, car compaines, and leaded gasoline we'd kept bro. Thats big bucks. Shotgun shells don't even come close to adding into that. Lead paint... could be made cheap, and it'd stick. It was much more durable than what we have even today. Thats why clear coats are nessessary, to protect the delicate paints of today.

Lead isn't as toxic as I think, or the government? It breaks down (which is a joke anywhere, where do ya'll think it goes away too?) quicker in the elements.... Well, why are lead pipes and lead crystal still a health hazard, 50 years since they have been made?

Why is the air in an indoor shooting range filtered and cirulated? Cause it'd kill your ass if it wasn't.

Doc, your daddy thought the same thing my daddy did and everyone else did at that time. Limited information, misinformation, rumors, and really crappy shells that cost more... Who didnt bitch about them. The info wasn't at your finger tips to find out the truth, and make your own desiscions. Now it is. World is much bigger than how far you can drive remember.... If your daddy was still around, I'd bet he agrees more with me now than himself then. I know my daddy would.

Mhunter... I never heard that about shot sizes... And I've read a ton. It's possible smaller sizes pass through, and don't have the effect, I don't know. But even then, its still in the ground, water, and air, and it doesn't have to be, and shouldn't.

Any of ya'll heard of the condors they found lead posioned? Condors are sum big bastards, 6-7 foot wing span, probably 50-75 pound birds that are like the rarest thing on the north american contient. Apprently, they developed a taste for yotes ranchers had shot, and died of lead posioning from the bullets in the carcasses. The man who killed those coyotes probably stood many a day and marveled at the flight of the largest raptor on earth. Do you think he would have done ANYTHING that might have killed that same bird? Would you? Could you tell your boy about something that USED to be here, but yourself and your peers where too "@#$%#" lazy to change their habits, or too cheap to spend a few dollars to keep an incredible part of nature alive? . The error of his forefathers against nature (removing the large predators, opening the doors for smaller ones), made him, just as unwillingly mind you, committ yet another greivious sin against Ma Nature. She's got less room for errors every year guys, and as the people who claim to love her the most, we owe her the most.

If the rank and file 'sportsman' cared as much and was as informed as the rank and file 'bunny hugger' it would be amazing what we could do. travis

[tupe]

This is from a Canadian study. If you want to learn the TRUTH follow the link and read the FACTS. This is just one of many sites that talk about th elead/steel issue.

." It is the hunter's responsibility to learn how to shoot as efficiently as possible, whether with lead or with an alternative shot type. By the same token, it is the responsibility of government wildlife agencies to provide hunters with ready access to information and training so that shooting efficiency can be improved and crippling of game animals reduced. If hunters and wildlife managers are prepared to take seriously their respective responsibilities regarding this issue, excessive crippling may be controlled, regardless of the type of shot hunters use.

The undesirable effects of hunting with steel shot are restricted to crippling losses. Detrimental effects of lead shot usage include crippling losses, losses from lethal and sublethal lead poisoning of waterfowl and other wild birds through primary poisoning, losses from lethal and sublethal poisoning of raptors and scavengers (secondary poisoning), the risk of lead exposure for some livestock species (domestic fowl, cattle), unnecessary lead exposure for humans consuming game bagged with lead shot, and the eventual breakdown of metallic lead pellets in the environment and subsequent transfer of particulate and molecular lead to plants and animals."

Here is the link http://www.cws-scf.ec.gc.ca/publication ... hap4_e.cfm

M.B.

[judge jb]

and too think that my wife wants a cell phone cover with Elvis on it......
what a Christmas wish list she has....


judge jb

all i want for Christmas is a box of steel......

[the doctor]

gb

thats what i love about the world today information, tons of information is available at our fingertips its up to us to use wisley and responsibly

i thought the story was kind of silly thus the term "far fetched" in my original post it did make for interesting conversation though i will commend you on your posts-well thought out and well versed-except the part about the eagle and elvis-dont poke fun at the KING

never any shortage of opinions on msducks!

moving on
td

[hillhunter]

Thanks for all the info on this subject guys. We still have folks shooting lead where i'm from and it's hard convincing them to switch as long as they're not getting caught by game wardens. You have made some very good points and I'll have to use some of these ideas sometime (don't worry I won't plagarize).

[GulfCoast]

I am flat tripping out on some of this.

I agree with goosebruce on lead-don't shoot lead at ducks. Don't shoot lead on dove fields which you intend to flood for ducks later (DUH). Lead will kill you, make you sterile, and give your future born children freaky mutant features, not necessarily in that order. Have you ever read the warnings on bags of lead shot for reloading?

What causes cripples?

Fruitloops that can't shoot cause cripples, not steel. Tom Roster has done an evaluation of several thousand of duck hunters in his steel shot clinics. These are not wanna be's, but people who hop a plane and pay a lot of jack to take a steel shot only shooting clinic. Roster has found a total of 10 guys who could hit 5 clay targets in a row with steel shot past 35 yards in broad daylight in street clothes. Its a lot harder to fold a duck in waders standing in mud in bad light than it was in Roster's studies. Don't shoot ducks that are out of range, and get rid of the long range chokes 99.9% of hunters are not skilled enough to use (including me) and you cut way down on cripples.

Goosebruce is on crack on this dog thing.

I think the mandatory dog use idea is a crock of steaming crap. I got no problems with dog lovers, but it isn't guys like me causing the crippling problem. I have hunted without a dog for years. I keep up with the numbers, and I lose 4 or 5 ducks a year (4.something but how do you have a fraction of a duck) out of well over a hundred ducks shot for the last several 5 years. That is 4 or 5 ducks too many, but a dog would not have made any difference.

Frankly, I have seen very few so called "seasoned dogs" that I thought were worth the trouble. I have lost 100 times more shots at flared birds from guys jumping up and down screaming and shrieking at dogs than I ever have gained from one picking up a cripple that I could not find.

However, most folks don't deal well with you asking them "how much did you pay for 2 years of training that beast" when they have walked 50 yards throught a bean field, screaming at the dog, blowing a whistle till their eyes bug out, stand over a dead duck, and yell "FETCH, @#%. FETCH@#*(*@!) while ducks flare out of the hole.

You may love your dog. Cool. I love them too. Got no beef with you taking it hunting, or even hunting with me, just so you don't shock the pee out of it in the water. But to say dog use should be mandated so the non-dog users will quit making excess cripples is a profound crock of crap, and you know it. Better to say, take and pass a real shooting competancy test, and then hunt with or without one, your choice.

[goosebruce]

Whut, did you just scan my post? Read it again....I used that as an example of crazy $#!+ they could do to reduce cripples. The poster had said that more ducks where lost by steel, than lead posioning & lead cripples, and I explained that hunters crippled ducks not shot type, and he DIDN'T want the government to get into the reduced cripple game. The examples i gave also included a compentcey test, which is just as far out as mandating a dog or giving diffrent limits for dogless hunters.

The average dog leaves as much to be desired as the average shooter. But even the average dog will find ducks the average hunter crippled that would have been lost otherwise. Comparing your expereinces to shooting GC and dogs, is like comparing my expereience with shooting and dogs. If I shot like you I wouldn't need a dog like mine, and the inverse is just as true. So far, my dog has made as many 100 plus yard retrevies as fetches in the decoys this year. What can I say, we're in a shooting slump and the ducks havent cooperated. But we aint cut a feather we didn't end up with the meat, and no matter how that comes about, thats what everyone should strive for. Not to mention excellent dog work adds as much to a hunt as the dog work you described takes away. travis