war in iraq

[rookie]

Long, but worth the read.
>
>
>
> Please take the time to read the attached essay by Dr. Chong. It is
> without a doubt the most articulate and convincing writing I have
read
> regarding the War in Iraq. If you have any doubts please open your
mind
> to his essay and give a fair evaluation.
>
> I had no idea who Dr. Chong is or the source of these thoughts... so
when
> I received them, I almost deleted them - as well-written as they
are. But
> then I did a "Google search" on the Doctor and found him to be a
retired
> Air Force Surgeon of all things and past Commander of Wilford Hall
> Medical Center in San Antonio. So he is real, is connected to
Veterans
> affairs in California, and these are his thoughts. They are worth
reading
> and thinking about!(the same Google search will direct you to some
of his
> other thought-provoking writings.)
>
> Subject: Muslims, terrorist and the USA. A different spin on Iraq
war.
>
> This WAR is for REAL! Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired
> Tuesday, July 12, 2005
>
> To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our
country
> is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know
it,
> that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII).
>
> The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there
are
> very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even
fewer who
> realize what losing really means.
>
> First, let's examine a few basics:
>
> 1. When did the threat to us start?
> Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United
State
> is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the
> following attacks on us:
>
> * Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;
> * Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983;
> * Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;
> * Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988;
> * First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;
> * Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;
> * Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998;
> * Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998;
> * Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000;
> * New York World Trade Center 2001;
> * Pentagon 2001.
>
> (Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581
terrorist
> attacks worldwide).
>
> 2. Why were we attacked?
>
> Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks
happened
> during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1,
Clinton
> and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or
> Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or
their
> immediate predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter.
>
> 3. Who were the attackers?
> In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.
>
> 4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%.
>
> 5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful?
> Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that
the
> predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but
under the
> dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian), that made
no
> difference. You either went along with the administration or you
were
> eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis
for
> political reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests). (see
> http://www.nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm )
>
> Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis,
as
> the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we
seldom
> heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler
kept
> the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing
anyone
> who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the
world
> - German, Christian or any others.
>
> Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but
kill
> all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone
else.
> The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no
> protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful
Muslims
> there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist
Muslim
> leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- by their own
> pronouncements -- killing all of us "infidels." I don't blame the
> peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was shut up or
die?
>
> 6. So who are we at war with?
>
> There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than
the
> Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid
verbalizing
> this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win if you
don't
> clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting.
>
> So with that background, now to the two major questions:
>
> 1. Can we lose this war?
>
> 2. What does losing really mean?
>
> If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions
>
> We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound,
the
> major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom
the
> answer to the second question - What does losing mean?
>
> It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war
means
> hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our
> business, like post Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one
can
> get.
>
> What losing really means is:
>
> We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks
will
> not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they want
us
> dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they would
not
> have produced an increasing series of attacks against us, over the
past
> 18 years. The plan was clearly, for terrorist to attack us, until we
were
> neutered and submissive to them.
>
> We would of course have no future support from other nations, for
fear of
> reprisals and for the reason that they would see, we are impotent
and
> cannot help them.
>
> They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It
will
> be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain hostage. It
> doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to withdraw
its
> troops from Iraq. Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed
their
> train and told them to withdraw the troops. Anything else they want
Spain
> to do will be done. Spain is finished.
>
> The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that
they
> might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are
finished
> too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us.
However,
> it may already be too late for France. France is already 20% Muslim
and
> fading fast!
>
> If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life
will
> all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal with
us,
> if they were threatened by the Muslims. If we can't stop the
Muslims, how
> could anyone else?
>
> The Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are
> completely committed to winning, at any cost. We better know it too
and
> be likewise committed to winning at any cost.
>
> Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple.
Until
> we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put
> 100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to
take
> that 100% effort to win.
>
> So, how can we lose the war?
>
> Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by "imploding."
That is,
> defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their
purpose,
> and really digging in and lending full support to the war effort If
we
> are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we continue to be
> divided, there is no way that we can win!
>
> Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the
life
> and death seriousness of this situation.
>
> President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation.
> Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men
> between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow
> profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously?
This
> is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of
the
> civil rights we have become accustomed to. We had better be prepared
to
> lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly
lose
> all of them permanently.
>
> And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of
civil
> rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the victory
and
> in fact added many more since then.
>
> Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him?
>
> No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our
Political
> Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict and
have a
> clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to war. Get
them
> out of your head.
>
> Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the
> Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see
us
> lose. I hasten to add that this isn't because they are disloyal. It
is
> because they just don't recognize what losing means. Nevertheless,
that
> conduct gives the impression to the enemy that we are divided and
> weakening. It concerns our friends, and it does great damage to our
> cause.
>
> Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and
media
> regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps
exemplifies
> best what I am saying. We have recently had an issue, involving the
> treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our
> military police. These are the type prisoners who just a few months
ago
> were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their
hands,
> cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own people
just
> for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein.
>
> And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed
> 400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the
same
> type of enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and
dragging
> their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq.
>
> And still more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is
providing
> videos to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of
American
> prisoners they held.
>
> Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several
days
> ave thought and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of
some
> uslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their charred
corpses
> hrough the streets, not beheading them, but "humiliating" them.
>
> Can this be for real?
>
> The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the
> Secretary of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of
> comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we
are
> fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous
> results of losing this war, nothing can.
>
> To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this
prisoner
> issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burned --
> totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. Neither we,
nor
> any other country, can survive this internal strife. Again I say,
this
> does not mean that some of our politicians or media people are
disloyal.
> It simply means that they are absolutely oblivious to the magnitude,
of
> the situation we are in and into which the Muslim terrorists have
been
> pushing us, for many years.
>
> Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels!
That
> translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United State, but
> throughout the world.
>
> We are the last bastion of defense.
>
> We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That
charge
> is valid in at least one respect. We are arrogant in that we believe
that
> we are so good, powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and
minds
> of all those who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our
> back, we can defeat anything bad in the world!
>
> We can't!
>
> If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not
survive,
> and no other free country in the world will survive if we are
defeated.
>
> And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that
allow
> freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom
of
> the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal
status or
> any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way
that
> contributes to the good of the world.
>
> This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this
war or
> we will be equated in the history books to the self-inflicted fall
of the
> Roman Empire . If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow history
books
> to be written or read.
>
> If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the
Muslims
> take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to
> increase the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach
little
> by little, on the established French traditions. The French will be
> fighting among themselves, over what should or should not be done,
which
> will continue to weaken them and keep them from any united resolve.
> Doesn't that sound eerily familiar?
>
> Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some
> external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away,
> politically correct piece by politically correct piece.
>
> And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown,
> worldwide that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or
even to
> themselves, once they are in power.
>
> They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they
then
> start brutally killing each other over who will be the few who
control
> the masses. Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct,
about
> the "peaceful Muslims"?
>
> I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are
> united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now after the
election,
> the factions in our country will begin to focus on the critical
situation
> we are in, and will unite to save our country. It is your future we
are
> talking about! Do whatever you can to preserve it.
>
> After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves,
but
> our children, our grandchildren, our country and the world.
>
> Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal and that
includes
> the Politicians and media of our country and the free world!
>
> Please forward this to any you feel may want, or NEED to read it.
Our
> "leaders" in Congress ought to read it, too. There are those that
find
> fault with our country, but it is obvious to anyone who truly thinks
> through this, that we must UNITE!
>

[crow]

Problem is, we picked the wrong country to attack. Iraq was of little consequence. We need to cut off the head...Usama Bin Laden! Finish the job in Afghanistand and Pakistan if the can't get it together. Then go after any country that won't take care of the terrorists there. Take care of the countries that have the capacity to export terrorism, then threaten any of the others that even appear to be allowing terrorist training/facilitation.

We don't have the capacity to do it all at once. We need to pick them off one at a time, but a hell of a lot quicker than we are in Afghanistan.

Plain and simple...Iraq was a mistake of military strategy; there was no moral imperative for us to go in there.

My 2 cents.

crow

[duckkiller]

well I am not going to get into a heated debate but I feel like we are over there now so we need to go ahead and finish the job. The bottom line is we need to support our soilders no matter if you believe in the war or not we owe it to them to support them and thank them for what they do for us day in and day out

[greenheadgrimreaper]

The thing is there will only be a few replies to this because so many think things are not serious. They wanna wory about what the weather is gonna do or who is on American Idol. It's pitiful. I think we should finish the job in Iraq and keep on fighting. All the while countries like France will see their downfall and other will realize the seriousness of it and hopefully join the fight. I don't care if you don't like Bush or not, he is our appointed leader, the Good Lord made it that way on purpose so I'll stand by him. One thing to think about is in the Revelations it never says anything about a powerful country such as America. I don't think we will be here. Call me an alarmist but one thing is for sure, you don't know what kinda shape the world is in. I am a realist. Ignoring what's going on is ignorance. I fear for my future sometimes the way things are. I can only hope God realized there are still some good people in this country.

[Don Miller]

It didn't bother to read all of the post but I know how to stop the pockets of resistance. TURN HUSSIAN LOOSE. I guarantee he would have the different factions in check within a month.

[Cotten]

Problem is, we picked the wrong country to attack. Iraq was of little consequence. We need to cut off the head...Usama Bin Laden! Finish the job in Afghanistand and Pakistan if the can't get it together. Then go after any country that won't take care of the terrorists there. Take care of the countries that have the capacity to export terrorism, then threaten any of the others that even appear to be allowing terrorist training/facilitation.

We don't have the capacity to do it all at once. We need to pick them off one at a time, but a hell of a lot quicker than we are in Afghanistan.

Plain and simple...Iraq was a mistake of military strategy; there was no moral imperative for us to go in there.

My 2 cents.

crow

Agreed.

And Iraq will cost Republicans the congress here in a couple of weeks.

[Delta Duck]

I did not read all of the post, but my view. As long as the terrorist are going to Iraq to fight lets kill them over there!

Anyone the wants to or would do harm to my baby girls I have no problem with killing them or having them killed!!

[crow]

Don't anyone get me wrong...we need to be fighting somewhere that ain't in the US. And, I assure you, noone is better attuned to what our troops need more than Tunica, Dan, and a few others of us who have been part of an unpopular war. The guy in the article above is right in concept, I just don't agree that our troops need to be spending time and blood in Iraq. Iraq was/is a godforsaken, terrible, armpit of a place that would have no consequence in the world...except for oil. Iraq had bled itself nearly dry against Iran and then turned on its own people to simply have order of government. It was a terrible government, led by a tyrant, but it did what it had to do to maintain order in that country. They just weren't much of a problem to us anymore after Desert Storm. They had didly squat of an army after we whooped on them then. But now that we have removed that government and established one with no power, we are left to hold the bag of containment...just like we were in Vietnam...with no clear way out without a long presence there. And, we will not do what we would have to do to get it settled down because it would be a terrible thing for the world to see.

This will get much worse before we are done there. I have no confidence that the American people will allow the military to do what they need to do to stabilize Iraq.

[Cotten]

Don't anyone get me wrong...we need to be fighting somewhere that ain't in the US. And, I assure you, noone is better attuned to what our troops need more than Tunica, Dan, and a few others of us who have been part of an unpopular war. The guy in the article above is right in concept, I just don't agree that our troops need to be spending time and blood in Iraq. Iraq was/is a godforsaken, terrible, armpit of a place that would have no consequence in the world...except for oil. Iraq had bled itself nearly dry against Iran and then turned on its own people to simply have order of government. It was a terrible government, led by a tyrant, but it did what it had to do to maintain order in that country. They just weren't much of a problem to us anymore after Desert Storm. They had didly squat of an army after we whooped on them then. But now that we have removed that government and established one with no power, we are left to hold the bag of containment...just like we were in Vietnam...with no clear way out without a long presence there. And, we will not do what we would have to do to get it settled down because it would be a terrible thing for the world to see.

This will get much worse before we are done there. I have no confidence that the American people will allow the military to do what they need to do to stabilize Iraq.

Everybody listen up. This guy Crow knows what he's talking about and sounds like he's been there. Some people are not capable of living in a democracy. They simply are not civilized enough. We dealt with something like this over 60 years ago and one atomic bomb was not enough to obtain surrender and instill a democracy. It took two.

[duck warrior]

Regardless of wheter it was righto r wrong, it woudl be a disaster for future genrations in so many wyas if we were to pull out now.

The play has been called, we have to play it all the way out as best we can and not waste time questioning the play during the middle of it. In order for the play to succeed, all players have to be sold out in beleiving it will work, or it will not. Nay sayers and negativity help accomlish failure.

Lets kick their teeth in completely and fully, help them get their gov set up as we promised them we would if they would revolt against their old dictator way of life, and then leave it with them to carry on. Then we let the world know that whether you think it is right or wrong, we will do waht we sway we are going to do and live up to our promises come hell or high water.

My 2cents.

Mallards and greys......Im coming after you. That is a promise.

[tunica]

Now I hear them (terrorist) talking that the war will not be lost or won in Irag...but in the media in the USA...


I want to puke...I dont want a reply of the 60's and 70's...

I dont want peace marches or protests

I dont want those that are serving to have to feel the hate and contempt that I felt walking thru airports and waiting on the Bus or when you enroll back into college.

I'd rather shoot Myself than see this play again....

You cannot protest the war without protesting against the Soliders....

I dont give one tinkers Crap if you think they are seperate... THEY AINT

It hurts to hear Baby killer, political ploy, or your so stupid to be in the Army you should of ran off to Canada....

Trust Me I would rather see all MY children in the grave than to see one survive only to hear that same old Anti War crap I heard. To this day I remember the hate in their eyes and the venom in their Words. To have people you thought were your freinds, see you when you come home and spit and laugh at you to call you all the names. To see girls that you dated look at you in terror and tell ya you aint Human that your a animal that they wished you had died and not those poor defenseless people...

I've always loved America but there was a time when America Hated Me.

[cwink]

I agree we need to finish this thing in Iraq and stop tippy toeing around the issues. Let our soilders do thier jobs and untie thier hands..

I don't think it was a mistake to go into Iraq, because I think the bigger threat is Iran.. Which of course is right next door to Iraq.. Clear out Iraq and put the pressure on Iran.. If we leave now. Iran will run to take control over Iraq, then we really have big issues...

[bigoak]

We will never be able to make the people of the Middle East change their religious beliefs. I am sick and tired of President Bush saying that the terrorists hate freedom. It is way more complicated than that and he does not have the intelligence to understand. Bush thought that if we removed Hussian then Iraq would all of a sudden become nice and peaceful and everyone would be holding hands and singing songs together. These people have been fighting since the beginning of time. They will never be peaceful. To say that we need to stay and finish the job is foolish. We might as well completely occupy Iraq and make it a state. The Iraqi government will never be self sufficient. I predict that we will stay in Iraq as long as Bush is the president and the next president will be left with this mess that he created.

[Don Miller]

I still say, turn Sadam loose and he will take care of the uprising.

[Don Miller]

I did not read all of the post, but my view. As long as the terrorist are going to Iraq to fight lets kill them over there!

Anyone the wants to or would do harm to my baby girls I have no problem with killing them or having them killed!!

Come on Delta Duck, I doubt there will ever be a terrorist problem in Dundee.