[/quote]
I have never understood this concept, can someone explain to me how the size of the bullets matters when it hits a branch or limb.. Just does not make sense to me? Not trying to start a caliber war, just want to know the logic behind this.. IMO the only thing a larger bullet has over a smaller bullet would be knock down power..Seems to me that the faster the bullet, the better the ability to cut thru an object instead of deflect.[/quote]
Lighter the bullet the better it bounce's around after hitting bone.
Rifle Question
'Cwinkler'.......I don't really know why......but it has to do with mass and velocity. You take a 45-70 Gov't......it's big and slow, like 400grains going under 2500fps.....it'll hit something and tumble end over end along the same path. A .308 w/ 180gr RN will withstand some deflection, as will a 30-06 w/ 220 RN, because they're going roughly 2800fps or less.
On the other hand, the 100gr .243 going 3200-3300+fps is light and when it hits something that alters the tragectory (regardless of how slight we might think it would affect the flight path), it's going to be altered because of the pointed nose of the bullet, the lighter mass and the higher velocity. If it were round like the 45-70, maybe it wouldn't 'as' sensative to obstructions
The 270 (what she switched to after the 243 deflection) apparently has enough mass and velocity (momentum) that it wasn't altered as much when it hit the same type obstruction and remained more on line with the intended tragectory. Either that or she was more aware of grass along the bullet path.
I'm not knowledgeable enough to wade through the ballistics and flight dynamics.......at best, I would just show my ignorance in an attempt to offer any explanation. I just know that when my wife tells me what her experience was (especially with regard to hunting African antelope species), I listen and have absolute faith that she knows what she's talking about.....'cause she's been there twice and almost stayed for the whole Summer instead of coming home. She learned a lot from her PH as he prescribed cartridges and the various characteristics as they relate to antelope in certain terrains. And I have no doubt she asked a lot of questions, because she wants to have a clear understanding of what she's dealing with ahead of time. That's good enough for me.
I DO know that they also used a 22 Hornet on camp meat.
She shot her Kudu 4 or 5 times, I think.....all good hits.......and they ended-up having to track it. When they gutted it, it's heart was pure MUSH. She was using a .270.
She shot a zebra dead-on and hit it in the throat patch so it wouldn't have an exit hole and ruin the hide for a rug......and the bullet lodged in the fat meat and never reached the spine. That's just hard for me to concieve, but she knows what she's talking about. It's a different world over there than what we're used to over here.
BTW, her Kudu and Sable are hanging in Big Buck Sports in Hattiesburg.
On the other hand, the 100gr .243 going 3200-3300+fps is light and when it hits something that alters the tragectory (regardless of how slight we might think it would affect the flight path), it's going to be altered because of the pointed nose of the bullet, the lighter mass and the higher velocity. If it were round like the 45-70, maybe it wouldn't 'as' sensative to obstructions
The 270 (what she switched to after the 243 deflection) apparently has enough mass and velocity (momentum) that it wasn't altered as much when it hit the same type obstruction and remained more on line with the intended tragectory. Either that or she was more aware of grass along the bullet path.
I'm not knowledgeable enough to wade through the ballistics and flight dynamics.......at best, I would just show my ignorance in an attempt to offer any explanation. I just know that when my wife tells me what her experience was (especially with regard to hunting African antelope species), I listen and have absolute faith that she knows what she's talking about.....'cause she's been there twice and almost stayed for the whole Summer instead of coming home. She learned a lot from her PH as he prescribed cartridges and the various characteristics as they relate to antelope in certain terrains. And I have no doubt she asked a lot of questions, because she wants to have a clear understanding of what she's dealing with ahead of time. That's good enough for me.
I DO know that they also used a 22 Hornet on camp meat.
She shot her Kudu 4 or 5 times, I think.....all good hits.......and they ended-up having to track it. When they gutted it, it's heart was pure MUSH. She was using a .270.
She shot a zebra dead-on and hit it in the throat patch so it wouldn't have an exit hole and ruin the hide for a rug......and the bullet lodged in the fat meat and never reached the spine. That's just hard for me to concieve, but she knows what she's talking about. It's a different world over there than what we're used to over here.
BTW, her Kudu and Sable are hanging in Big Buck Sports in Hattiesburg.
Tunica/Antitade,
Let me throw a monkey wrench in your logic. This is first hand experience on Ballistics. Growing up, we did a lot of shooting, competitive shooting a My dad was a balistic nut, so we regularly sited our guns in at a 3/4" piece of steel at 100 yards using all kinds of different bulled weights/composition . Below is a list of calibers that we fired at the steel..
308
30-06
270
257
6MM
243
22-250
220 Swift.
The ONLY bullet to go thru the steel was the 220 Swift. This was a 55 grain bullet. The 308 almost punched thru, but did not exit.. When the 220 went thru the back of course was blown out like you would expect, but the front side of the steel was also blown forward like the bulled exited from both side. It was absolutly amazing..
So the lack penetration cabability is not true on the smaller calibers..
Let me throw a monkey wrench in your logic. This is first hand experience on Ballistics. Growing up, we did a lot of shooting, competitive shooting a My dad was a balistic nut, so we regularly sited our guns in at a 3/4" piece of steel at 100 yards using all kinds of different bulled weights/composition . Below is a list of calibers that we fired at the steel..
308
30-06
270
257
6MM
243
22-250
220 Swift.
The ONLY bullet to go thru the steel was the 220 Swift. This was a 55 grain bullet. The 308 almost punched thru, but did not exit.. When the 220 went thru the back of course was blown out like you would expect, but the front side of the steel was also blown forward like the bulled exited from both side. It was absolutly amazing..
So the lack penetration cabability is not true on the smaller calibers..
http://safefireshooting.com/
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them"
-George Washington
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them"
-George Washington
That's interesting......but my point was relative to deflection...not penetration. But I'm not surprised in your findings about the small, fast projectile.
I alternate shooting .270 and .308. The .308 was my first rifle cartridge for deer. Since then, I've shot 270Win, 264WinMag and 257Robts. I sold the 264 because I never could keep a bullet together in a deer......they always fragmented at velocities higher than 3200fps...plus I never took shots over 150 yds and had little need for whatever slight tragectory improvement there is over the 270. Just wasn't enough to make a difference (comparing 130gr, .277 and 120 6.5mm)
But I'm not surprised in your findings about the small, fast projectile.
I alternate shooting .270 and .308. The .308 was my first rifle cartridge for deer. Since then, I've shot 270Win, 264WinMag and 257Robts. I sold the 264 because I never could keep a bullet together in a deer......they always fragmented at velocities higher than 3200fps...plus I never took shots over 150 yds and had little need for whatever slight tragectory improvement there is over the 270. Just wasn't enough to make a difference (comparing 130gr, .277 and 120 6.5mm)
-
hillhunter
- Duck South Addict
- Posts: 2519
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 5:38 pm
- Location: Houston, MS
I think the bullet will act somewhat differently on flesh and bone than it will on a piece of steel. I belive what you say cwinkler, but I've seen too many different calibers' effects on deer and flesh just from being around camphouses all of my life that the bigger bullets seem to carry more energy to the impact site. The smaller bullets are faster and may go straight through, but how much energy is transfered to the animal. An ideal hit never exits the animal, so that all of the bullets' energy is absorbed by the animal, and not on its continuing flight pattern.
Anat, did the find the zebra to confirm this is what happened or are they just speculating? I'm just wondering cause when I was 14 I shot a whitetail in the neck when he was facing me. I didn't miss, but the bullet went about 1 1/2 off from the center of the deer's neck. I killed that deer 5 days later chasing a doe about a half mile from there.. his neck was all festered up and you could see the bullet hole and path. It missed his spine and his throat so it didn't kill him. He just bled like crazy and ran off. I would say this would be pretty easy to do on a zebra too cause their neck is so big. I was shooting a 7mm rem mag so there was plenty of power there, just not a well placed shot. This is the reason why I will never shoot anywhere but the shoulder. Lot more organs in this area to mess up.
Anat, did the find the zebra to confirm this is what happened or are they just speculating? I'm just wondering cause when I was 14 I shot a whitetail in the neck when he was facing me. I didn't miss, but the bullet went about 1 1/2 off from the center of the deer's neck. I killed that deer 5 days later chasing a doe about a half mile from there.. his neck was all festered up and you could see the bullet hole and path. It missed his spine and his throat so it didn't kill him. He just bled like crazy and ran off. I would say this would be pretty easy to do on a zebra too cause their neck is so big. I was shooting a 7mm rem mag so there was plenty of power there, just not a well placed shot. This is the reason why I will never shoot anywhere but the shoulder. Lot more organs in this area to mess up.
work hard, play hard
Antidate, Your point was on deflection and mine was penetration... Deflection is a lot harder to dertermine than penetration, so my speculation on deflection is only theory..
Hillhunter, I did say above that IMO the only advantage to larger calibers is knockdown power which is true.. They do have more knock down power.. I have shot .243 for over 20 years and have never lost a deer.. Shot them in the neck, shoulder and have never had one run more than 10 steps..
My last gun that I purchased was a 270 WSM. I can get the same speed and trajectory as my 243, but with more knock down power.
Also not sure how many people know this but most all bullet calibers originate from 2 main bullet sizes, both are Millitary rounds.
The .308 (a 30 Caliber round) lead to the 6MM (27 or 28 Caliber?) and the 243 (24 Caliber) they are all in the same family.
The 30-06 - (a 30 Caliber round) lead to 270 (27 Caliber) and 25-06 (25 Caliber) and I believe the (22-250)
So all of these rounds will be comparable to the others, with the exception of knock down power..
IMO, shot placement and bullet type are way more important than caliber... and no amount of bullet wieght will make up for a bad shot.. That is why I like the .243 there are endless bullet types and a low recoil (which helps with shot placement)
Hillhunter, I did say above that IMO the only advantage to larger calibers is knockdown power which is true.. They do have more knock down power.. I have shot .243 for over 20 years and have never lost a deer.. Shot them in the neck, shoulder and have never had one run more than 10 steps..
My last gun that I purchased was a 270 WSM. I can get the same speed and trajectory as my 243, but with more knock down power.
Also not sure how many people know this but most all bullet calibers originate from 2 main bullet sizes, both are Millitary rounds.
The .308 (a 30 Caliber round) lead to the 6MM (27 or 28 Caliber?) and the 243 (24 Caliber) they are all in the same family.
The 30-06 - (a 30 Caliber round) lead to 270 (27 Caliber) and 25-06 (25 Caliber) and I believe the (22-250)
So all of these rounds will be comparable to the others, with the exception of knock down power..
IMO, shot placement and bullet type are way more important than caliber... and no amount of bullet wieght will make up for a bad shot.. That is why I like the .243 there are endless bullet types and a low recoil (which helps with shot placement)
http://safefireshooting.com/
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them"
-George Washington
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them"
-George Washington
Grommet wrote:I think Roy Weatherby would be disappointed in all of you.
Nah, my .243 is a Weartherby....
http://safefireshooting.com/
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them"
-George Washington
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them"
-George Washington
1) Force=massxacceleration. True physics formula. While it is hard to measure acceleration you can somewhat change it out for velocity. The optimum velocity (read highest) are a good mix between weight of the bullet and the amount of powder behind it. It alslo depends on the brand and shape of the bullet (bonded, nonbonded, Aframe, boattail, FMG, short ogive, ect.)
2)1200 footpound is historically what is considered what is minimum to kill a deer. I'm not disucssing head shots or spine shots but when thinking about a deer gun if it has less than 1200 fp then it is a bit week. .223 has this or great out to about 150-200 yrds. I think this number came from the 30-30 and what type of energy it has at 100 yrds. NOTHING scientific
3)Lazzeroni, Weatherby and some others are able to manufacture bullets that are only fired in their guns that are better than the "stock" ammo. Lazzeroni makes such wild claims that I borderline don't believe them.
All in all if you take a company like Remmy and look at the ballistics on teh web site you will see what type of bullet spreads what type of energy downrange. Also you need to know a little about each bullet and the fragmentation potential. Bonded bullets dont fragment like Nosler partition. Swift Aframe and Winchester Failsafe balloon to make a big hole but retain almost all of there weight. Choose the caliber you want but make sure you also choose the correct bullet.
Talk about bouncing off of trees and deflection I'll leave to the topwaters
2)1200 footpound is historically what is considered what is minimum to kill a deer. I'm not disucssing head shots or spine shots but when thinking about a deer gun if it has less than 1200 fp then it is a bit week. .223 has this or great out to about 150-200 yrds. I think this number came from the 30-30 and what type of energy it has at 100 yrds. NOTHING scientific
3)Lazzeroni, Weatherby and some others are able to manufacture bullets that are only fired in their guns that are better than the "stock" ammo. Lazzeroni makes such wild claims that I borderline don't believe them.
All in all if you take a company like Remmy and look at the ballistics on teh web site you will see what type of bullet spreads what type of energy downrange. Also you need to know a little about each bullet and the fragmentation potential. Bonded bullets dont fragment like Nosler partition. Swift Aframe and Winchester Failsafe balloon to make a big hole but retain almost all of there weight. Choose the caliber you want but make sure you also choose the correct bullet.
Talk about bouncing off of trees and deflection I'll leave to the topwaters
No, i don't want to know you ---- teul
Newton's second law states that force= change in momentum/change in time. Momemtum is defined by mass x velocity so it is really F= change in (mv)/Change in time. read the rest. Some basic algebra which I cannot take credit for give you Force =mass x change in velocity/change in time. Change in velocity/change in time equals acceletation. Thus F=ma as long as your object retains the same mass like a bullet should.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force
Last edited by Blackduck on Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
No, i don't want to know you ---- teul
Re: penetration vs 'knock-down' - the MAIN reason I got rid of the 264 was because the velocity was too high and went straight through the deer. The other thing was when the bullet DID hit a bone, it fragmented and did not maintain enough mass to create a wound channel....admittedly both are products of a poor bullet selection (relaoded cases) rather than the cartridge or it's ballistics.
RE: knock-down power - it's just a concept (coined by the shooting 'industry') of transferring sufficient energy to the target. The best assurance of 'knock-down' is to destroy structure, central nervous system, and/or hit vitals........all of which have to do with bullet placement and performance (assuming penetration is adequate to accomplish it's intended function). Even then (as in the case of the Kudu) the animal can still run-off a certain distance after being hit with sufficient 'energy' AND in the vitals. So, did it have unsatisfactory 'knock-down' power because the animal didn't drop in it's tracks? Would a .338 been a better choice? What about a 600 Nitro? I think the only time knock-down power is critical is when 1 ton of 'hate' (cape buffalo) is about to clean your plow.
RE: Neck shot on zebra.......I'm not sure whether that animal was recovered, but will ask her about the specifics, when I get home. I should let her tell the story, but she doesn't post on here.
RE: knock-down power - it's just a concept (coined by the shooting 'industry') of transferring sufficient energy to the target. The best assurance of 'knock-down' is to destroy structure, central nervous system, and/or hit vitals........all of which have to do with bullet placement and performance (assuming penetration is adequate to accomplish it's intended function). Even then (as in the case of the Kudu) the animal can still run-off a certain distance after being hit with sufficient 'energy' AND in the vitals. So, did it have unsatisfactory 'knock-down' power because the animal didn't drop in it's tracks? Would a .338 been a better choice? What about a 600 Nitro? I think the only time knock-down power is critical is when 1 ton of 'hate' (cape buffalo) is about to clean your plow.
RE: Neck shot on zebra.......I'm not sure whether that animal was recovered, but will ask her about the specifics, when I get home. I should let her tell the story, but she doesn't post on here.
-
mshunter77
- Duck South Addict
- Posts: 4106
- Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:04 pm
- Location: Ocean Springs via Natchez
-
kenneth lister
- Regular
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:29 pm
- Location: fayette,al
work injury given me to much time to play.Checked on some stats. for you,looks like 7mm-08 is the best suited gun for her.Here's why i think this.looked at my books and here's results of each cal. at 200yrds.I compared them in energy,grns bullet whd,and wind drift.
energyinftlbs grns wind drft
243 1330 100 3.6 federal
25-06 1600 117 3.5 federal
7mm-08 1975 139 2.4 hornady
hope this might help some.either gun you get,don't spare on letting her shoot,any gun of any size is useless if you can't hit with it.Also get a scope fitted for her,our eye relief and hers is totally differnt.good luck to her,i put on several youth hunts for free every year,love to have you both.Adults hunt for free to,my way of giving back a portion of what i have been blessed with.
energyinftlbs grns wind drft
243 1330 100 3.6 federal
25-06 1600 117 3.5 federal
7mm-08 1975 139 2.4 hornady
hope this might help some.either gun you get,don't spare on letting her shoot,any gun of any size is useless if you can't hit with it.Also get a scope fitted for her,our eye relief and hers is totally differnt.good luck to her,i put on several youth hunts for free every year,love to have you both.Adults hunt for free to,my way of giving back a portion of what i have been blessed with.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 6 guests