just outta curiosity: re, e-collar use...

[Troy Williams]

Some of the responses to this surprised me. The King (Lardy) uses momentary stimulation in his program relying on "indirect pressure".

"Nick"

No he doesn't. He is almost always set on "C". He is varying the duration manually thus referring to the quick burns as nicks and of course the longer ones are considered burns.

I think an addendum needs inserted here. Rookies need to be careful with the "C" function of the collar. Unless you have used a collar enough to become skilled with timing and correction duration, BE CAREFUL!

Troy

[Troy Williams]

Gator
I have a pro 500 collar and have it usually set on cont. I don't feel sometimes that a 3 momentary is quite enough and a 4 momentary is to much. May sound kinda strange but as you use a collar you develope a feel for what is enough correction and what is to much.

Marty

It is that the Momentary corrections are so FLEETING that the dog may have trouble associating the correction. I think of it as a peepee. It is so prickly that the dogs just don't get it. Kinda like "Whoa, what happened, what did I do?" and before they can associate it, it's all long over with.

Ever been stung by a wasp you never saw? You just kinda wonder what happened and THEN, you figure it out. I don't think dogs think like that. They don't rationalize situations after the fact. That is why TIMING is so critical and also another reason why indirect psi works so well.

Basically, I agree with Marty here. I wanted to define his "not enough" for all the readers. "Not enough" can be interpreted as HEAT and I just don't see it that way.

Troy

[B3]

Chip,

Attrition defined is "the act of wearing down" In training it basically means repeating until they get it right.

For example.....

Dog is running a blind. You stop and give a right over and dog goes back. So you TOOT and recast. He goes back again so TOOT and recast. He goes back so TOOT and recast. He goes correctly this time and gets the bird and is rewarded.

There was no correction here. The stop whistle in this dogs mind was a correction in a way because you stopped him from going where he wanted. All you do is stop him and repeat until he gets it right. When he gets it right he is rewarded.

Attrition seems all touchy feely and all positive and everything but in my mind its not always the case. In my limited experience, too much use of attrition can "wear down" their attitude and momentum.

Bill

[H20K9]

I guess its really just a preference thing. I've got a 10y/o master hunter bitch that has never had anything but a nick, never used that big red on the 200 lite I trained her on. I just bought a 2 dog Pro 500XL, and I have found that a 4 nick is all that is necessary with her and the new firebreather.

[gator]

and the way i do it (not saying it's right) is when you give that right over, and they dig back ---- TOOT, bring them back IN, then recast.....

IMHO, bringing them back TOWARD you, shows them that the back dig was WRONG, as well as, regains control to an extent....

gator

[B3]

Thats exactly what I do too with "the beast". I learned it from watching Gator. I think the tooting back in has a big effect on the high roller because he knows you bringing him away from what he wants-the bird. With a less high octane dog I'd be concerned about calling back. Thats my theory anyway-I don't know how valid it is.

[Troy Williams]

Now we are going in a different direction but I like it....

Lets talk about MOMENTUM. Momentum, all alone, is a very good topic.

It is an issue that needs constant management in a probably every dog.

I bet Marty has some Momentum thoughts that would be good to hear.

How do you manage momentum?

[kaustin]

That's funny yall mention that. I have been having some cast refusals with him always wanting to go away. The other day he had done this 3 times and had gotten a little long. I brought him in about 5 yards, stopped him, waited a little longer to let him think about it, and bamm, over right to the dummy. I had not put together when he finally responded was after I brought him in some. This is why I like reading on this board. Not even what the topic was about, and I learned something that will help me and my dogs.

[gator]

you buncha dog gone thread hijackers......

gator,

[B3]

Back to collar corrections.

Once again, maybe not right but what I've done kinda on my on. I use nicks when dog is under control and not moving. Like at the line. Doesn't sit quickly when told....Sit nick sit. Or lags behind at heel....HEEL Nick HEEL. Or whines....QUIET nick QUIET (we've used that a lot). Also indirect pressure. Dog is already stopped and under control. Its TOOT nick TOOT.

The burn is used more when the dog is in motion. Say you blow a whistle and dog kinda gradually starts slowing down and looping before sitting.... For us its TOOT burn until butt hits ground TOOT. Or dog is farting around when you blow recall HERE burn til he gets butt in gear HERE. I don't use these burns much because I don't have too thankfully. These burns are bigger corrections because they are bigger infractions and they are occurring while dog is moving. They might blow right through that short nick but with the burn they have to change behavior to turn it off.

Bill

[Marty N.]

I was refering to the Heat on the collar using a high 3 nick with a low 4 nick as the top end. I feel that a continous 3 and my finger deciding how long to hold down is better than using the preconcieved level in the collar.

On correcting on cast refusals by re-calling then repeat the cast, remember our dogs are creatures of habit. If you correct this way the majority of the time then understand that when you need a cast to finish a blind or get on or off a point you might not get it. You are giving the dog an opportunity to do lit wrong then an opportunity to do it right. Our dogs are very very smart, some I have used this method on were willing to be recalled if they got to cave to suction once or maybe twice before giving the right cast.
I am not saying not to use this method, just be aware that you can be creating a problem instead of curing it.
Marty

[gator]

MAN!!! TALK ABOUT A SEG-WAY! thanks marty.....i've been waiting for a post VERY similar to that.....

so, in the words of doc holliday, "barba, you may proceed sir."

troy and i were sittin around having a brew and we got to talking about that seminar and some of the things he brought home w/ him....ONE of which was how Lardy viewed and used e-collar corrections....personally, i found it very interesting....

troy, i hope i do this justice as i'm paraphrasing you paraphrasing lardy, and if not, step in and save my drowning booty, ....

anyhow, it seems that lardy goes that extra mile NOT to burn a dog....a dog blows a cast off, he looks at his background.....a dog slips a whistle, he's on the horn asking the nearest BB if he could hear it...things of this nature....

BUT, when it was time, he didn't waste his time or the dog's chance to learn w/ a NICK...he wanted the dog to take heed about the wrong decision....

now, seemingly (again per the convo), SEVERAL folks didn't understand this -- prolly not believing it, not sure i woulda at the time.......seems lardy made a HUGE point that "although he doesn't use the NICK feature settling on the CONSTANT, he doesn't prescribe to an ALL OUT burn -- unless fully warranted of course....stating that the nick feature is TOO fast, not creating an impression w/ the dog, and that even the CONSTANT when pressed and released as fast as he could, is still a longer "burn" than the NICK offers.....seems he really wanted folks to understand that last point.....to him, the NICK nags, the constant feature IMPRESSES....

seems most on here had thought about it per the posts, good on ya.......i hadn't, not directly anyway, BUT it caused me to look at my corrections....

over the last year or so, IMHO, i've matured as a trainer and a handler....i've found myself giving dude the benefit of the doubt more often than not, trying to understand WHY he did something vs. the CONSTANT use of a heeling stick....personally, i think dude decided that the heeling stick was "just part of it"......more of a nag, if you will, than anything else....

to that end, i not necessarily "softened" my stance, but i finally realized how good he can be, and that more often than not, he's not giving me the bird, but giving me his heart, trying his damnedest.......thus, NOT justifying what i had put him thru...

recently, i've noticed his training REALLY getting sharp....the corrections (whatever they may be) are fewer and farther b/t.....i'm having to do less attrition as a result, and make fewer runs.

BUT, when it's time, IT'S TIME...........and, it's personal..........making a lasting impression in him......

i liken this to the use of the collar........when it's time, it's time, so make an impression........

marty is dead on IMHO about the use of attrition.....it's just like any and everything else in training....if used TOO MUCH, i think the dog just says, "ok, it's just part of it." THAT'S where i think the rubber meets the road in training...being able to read a dog and knowing the correct correction....

i told someone recently who was asking if i thought i understood the use of the collar that, "although the subtleness during CC i don't quite grasp right now, i feel i use of it in the field...........when i had finally reached the point that i needed to run to gauge, w/ the next pup, i'd push the button."

this is admittedly a rudamentary line of thought, but it's all i got right now....but, a pup should HOPEFULLY be forthcoming.....

great thoughts folks, gator

[chip laughton]

Alright guys I am going to go back to the attrition thing and handling. This is a pretty beginner question but I want to make sure I am doing it right. Here is my set up. For simplicity I will use the baseball diamond for description. At second base I have a ladder of bumpers just 2 about 10 -15 feet apart. The same for first base and third base. Then even with home plate I have one dummy even with the ones at 1st base, and one even with the ones at third base. I guess you could say it is a double T. From home plate I sent my dog to one at second and let him get it. Then I have him take the line towards second but stop him at the pitchers mound and send him to first base. So far a base ball drill. Now I have one left at second base. At this point I usually move my home plate back farther and line him up for second base again and let him get it this time.I do this to make sure he keeps running a line.

Now there is nothing at second base. I hope I am not confusing anyone at this point. Now with me back farther and the two dummies parallel with home plate,which he already ran between. But for some reason when I line him up and send him towards second this time he veers towards one of the dummies on the left. The attrition question. Should I call him back or stop him and cast him away and then back? This happended twice today. One time I called him back before he got to it and started over and he did it correctly the second time. The other time I stopped him and handled him off and then back and then over to the dummy I wanted him to get. Which was the correct approach? or did I totally screw up my drill all together the way I had it set up?

[B3]

I am confused. He goes straight to the back pile when theres bumpers there but when not he goes for an over pile? If this is the case then I think your set up is a little unfair for a young dog you are teaching casting to. You are sending him to an empty pile and he knows it. AND your sending him in between 2 piles where he knows theres bumpers. Thats asking a lot. IMO when teaching casts early on keep the destination clear. Use your back pile much more than your overs. I'd keep bumpers at the back pile so he knows to always go straight when sent from the line UNLESS he is stopped and casted elsewhere.

In early baseball you can use attrition. If he takes the wrong cast TOOT,cast again. Wrong cast again,TOOT, throw bumper to correct pile,cast again. He will take the right cast then so its GOOD BOY!

Casting drills like 8 handed cast use attrition and not collar correction.

[Marty N.]

Chip
Nothing wrong with your layot, but let me make a suggestion. Put 4 o r5 times the number of bumpers at second base than you have at the over piles. Run the pup to second three or 4 times for every stop. Make 2 or 3 back casts for every over. The object of running a blind is to run straight from your side. By running to 2nd base more than casting over you will eliminate the tendency to slide to an over pile. I realize that you are training Amish, so you might have to build his confidence up over a 2 or 3 day period to the Back Pile or 2nd base before you start casting.
Good Luck
Marty