Line to the blind

[eastwoods]

We talking 2 things.

One is training and one is testing/trialing.

In training you teach a line.

In testing trialing you handle to the bird cleanly.

I'm just big on everything revolving around a line concept. I like it when you don't blow a whistle and get the bird.

Sorry I don't take the time to type enough to explain some of the points.

[goosebruce]

Literal casting is a trainign technique!

Give the cast you can get to keep your dog in control. If doggie is on a point thats killing them, give the over to get in water, and cast back if you need it. An angle back there you dont get, you loose dog. Odds are an over in a test you get will be a line correction, and then dig back anyway, so why risk it?

Its rare the judge that cares what cast you give. They should all be sterilized, and not allowed to reproduce another generation of judges that dont have a clue.

Ive seen ton more blinds failed because people shudda gave an over, than Ive ever seen judges that care what cast you give. And that really super cool cast you OUGHT to be able to get, but you didn't, fails a ton of dogs when they are lost. Wanna be a hero, be an organ donor, want a ribbon, keep your dog in control. After running and judging a shiitpot load of hunt test blinds, Ive yet to see a winner... but I seen a bunch of losers. travis

[skuna]

Travis, What got me to thinking about this was you saying at the handling seminar, if a judge gives you something to hit, you better dang well hit. Points, goal post, log, big clump of tall grass, whatever. It got me to thinking because at SF spring finished water blind, there was a big clump of grass that was right out in front of the stake and the judges made it known that they wanted the dog to go through it, or at least closely around it. Mine did not. He took a bad initial line and I had to stop him half way between the grass and the stake. I'm sure I lost the whole thing right there but I was trying to figure what the best cast would have been.
An angle back would have caused him the bypass the grass all together........an over to get him back on line and then straight back could have got him between me and the grass and back up through it. At the time I gave the angle back and have since wondered if I should have given an over.

[B3]

Skuna,

Was that the Saturday or Sunday water blind? I guess was it the one in the more open spot down the right hand shore or the between the marks one that we didn't get to run cause we blew up on land?

Seems to me that in a test situation all the "factors" and suction seem to become a lot more potent and want to pull my dog off line a lot harder. What would be a easy blind in training ain't the same at a test because of drag back,excitement, and birdboy scent. I blew the water blind last fall at Old Hatchie with a left back with my dog on a point. Should have given an over.

Saw a thread a while back on RTF about momentum casting. This is literal casting to some degree but its not the cast that takes you to the bird. It involves reading the dog and over compensating the angle to get the dog to take the cast you want. Obviously not for training-just for a test or trial to get you the bird.

I can look at each blind we failed and see where if I'd given ONE cast different we'd have likely passed.

Don't know who's quote it is but its in the Lardy stuff:

"Over to blue....Back to the truck"

Bill

[gator]

thing is, in HRC and as far as i know in AKC HT's, the judges may "prefer" you to hit some cover but they can't MAKE you.....keep it as close to the line as you can, but give the cast that is gonna pick up the bird....ALWAYS.

IMHO, if i'm hunting (and face it, that's what you're judging in both venues), i'd rather a dog or my dog get the bird and get back quick vs. hacking in order to hit some cover.....same w/ a HT (again, MHO), there is a part in the rule book which states (and i'm paraphrasing) something to the effect of "disturbing less game/ground"...

train HARD to hit that clump, test to pick up the bird.....gator

[Frank B]

There is an old maxium, "over for the ribbon and back to the highway" I find myself remembering this often as I stand on the line during an event these days.

While judging, very frequently I see the angle back cast given and the dog digs back deep...quick whistle....loopy sit.... and now your in a worse position than when you first began.

Also, if there is a piece of cover or point on the line to the blind you need to make an ATTEMPT to hit it. If you banana around the obstacle with out making any attempt to challenge it a judge might score you weak in trainability (AKC) event to the extent of giving a zero (AKC).

Frank

[D. Walker]

I will have to dissagree that a 0 be given for trainability for a cast - just went to a judging seminar last month and the facts are these - Quote - Milton Holcombe said that you can not judge a dog for a cast that maybe incorrect in your mind or viewed as a cast refusal - one you do not know how that dog was trained to cast - pushing through the cover is a perseverance issue - sure we train on No-No drills but then again this is not a trial and you are not out of bounds - so in some judges minds this would be a problem and in some others not - me personally if i was judging I would ask myself would I hunt with that dog.

Now if that particular piece of cover was the only avenue of getting to the bird with being able to see the dog then heck yeah make the dog take it - then if it were me I would pick the dog up for CR or lack of effort - go home and train harder.

"Over to the truck - Back to the next series"
David

[goosebruce]

Thats not what he said... he said if your dog bananas around the obstcal with no effort to put him on line, you might be zero'd. Face it, if you could, you would. If you can, but don't, your an idiot, and it is a team sport. If you make no effort, your not showing control, ergo you should be zero'd. All a blind is a test of control.

95% of judges would rather you attack a blind, and judge it, than cheat it. You'll find a judge is much more leient (in any game) if he's juding the blind he set up, instead of the one you thought would better to run! hehe.

Gator, you can take that can't tell you where to run, and leave it in your sock drawer. No a judge can tell you in hrc you'd better hit a log... but he can fail you in a minute for not being on line to the blind. No predefined routes was to outlaw the 'theres a trotline where those orange ribbons are, swim your dog around it' blinds, or rediculous channel blinds where the bank is a landmine that blows up and fails a dog first time he touches it. I assure you, the line to the blind is straight, and there is a window to the blind... use that window, dont be a fool, but cheating a blind is the fastest way to get your feelings hurt on sat night when a mean old judge fails your 'good' blind.

That sat waterblind at southern flight, your dog should have went through the bushy thingy, or at least damn close to it. Lots of expereinced dog skirted it, then self corrected on the line through it. No dog would have been failed for not hitting it, but they where expected to be pretty close to it, as that was the line from the blind, and it was a mere 15 yards away. No training after a big layoff for my boy, I got a crappy inital on it, but one whistle and I hit it just tickling the right edge, and my dog got on line from there.

Anyone see the water blind at hurricane lake this spring I judged both days? Wasnt my blind, but it was a good one, and one that took some effort from the handlers. More people failed their dogs on that blind, than passed that blind, by far. After watching dog after dog, go out of control on the secondary point across the little cove, people continued to let their dogs hit the front of that point. The line was actually right past the end of it, and 10 foot into the water was just as online as where they where hitting on the other side on the bank. Why people contiuned to let their dogs beach on the front side of a point, and go on a hunt em up, is beyond me, when a timely cast could make dang near any dog, swim just past the end of that point, with a clear view of where he is heading. Every dog that took that line over the point (on the end, or just in the water), needed no more casts, or one more cast, to finish the last 40 yards... cause it was clear where they where going to them. But let them swim toward the front of that point, in their mind, they are there, and its over. In 2 days, one dog got wet AFTER hitting that point. When dog after dog crash in front of you, expecting anything different is silly. travis

[gator]

yeah man, i ABSOLUTELY know what you're saying.....the way i read some posts above, it was like a route was defined....that's all i meant by it.....

read my first sentence over again...........we're agreeing - i think.....

if was kinda lost in the middle part of my post, but we're on the same page on this....gator