Line to the blind

[skuna]

Since the handling seminar a couple weeks ago I have been wondering about something and Doc and Nash's post about handling got me to thinking about it again.

When running a blind in a test (finished) and you "challenge the line but dew to your dog being fast he pulls left out of line. Then give him a stop whistle and he sits 50 yards from the stake. Which would be better to do?

A. Give him a literal case to stake?

B. Give him an over and sit him again once back in line? Then a straight back case?

C. Give a short over and then the literal case?

I know a lot of this will depend on terrain, cover, drag back sent, wind, and distance to the stake from the spot you sat the dog.

But just say none of this was a factor....Just a long land blind in moved, flat field.

Would same situations in water be any different?

Benjy

[gator]

D: the cast you KNOW you can give and pick up the bird....gator

[Troy Williams]

D: the cast you KNOW you can give and pick up the bird....gator

ditto that.....

You have to make that call at the line in a split second, assessing all the factors, the dogs attitidue that day and everything in between.....

That is where a good handler that knows his dog gets thru and the other handlers gets to watch him get a ribbon later. hehehe

[skuna]

Ok, let me put it another way.

Say one guy runs the blind like I described above uses option A.

Next guy runs and dog does same exact thing and he uses option B.

Which dog/handle would be viewed as having a better blind?

[gator]

all things being equal (i.e. perfect sit to whistles, and perfect cast), i "guess" dog A........only 1 cast required to pick up bird and a "literal" cast IMHO shows a more advanced level of training. combine w/ the fact that both caved equally to the task, A took less time to get bird....

remember tho, the game you play, BEST is arbitrary "at best".....don't count whistles cause you ain't looking for a winner.....count WR's and CR's which will show a level of control either above OR below the STANDARD set forth....

FT's, dog A.....our game, both get a ribbon....gator

[Tripp DuPerrieu]

yup. don't matter how many whistles or how many casts. an over and a back or a literal to the bird- don't matter especially in a HT and I would bet ya' a dollar to a donut it would get carried in a FT too. go watch a FT, those folks train literal, but when the rubber hits the road, they will give that over and back.

[D. Walker]

I think instead of runnin tests and trying to figure out the best cast I would go to the route of the problem and fix it in the yard with drills then carry it over into the field - in tests the dog is learning the skill of getting test wise and knowing what it can get away with.

Just my 2 cents.

Straighter the line is the better score - but then again it depends on what level - the dog could get a low score on trainablity for the loopy sit - or a higher score for getting the dog to take the cast and getting the dog to the bird with that cast - depends on the factors that created the suction or the fade.

David

[eastwoods]

A, 100%

Over is to pick up the bird.

If you give an over and don't pick up the bird your dog went to far off line, in my book.

Anyway, that's what I think and I'm sticking to it.

An over to get on line just seems and feels wrong.

[skuna]

DW, For me I would not say this is a problem. It is just one of things that I try and think about now before it happens in a test. I do have a very fast dog and have to be ready to blow any time.

My gut feeling was to give an angle back for a literal cast, just wondering how much difference in the two as far as how the judges would see it.

Let's change it up a little.....say there is a point of cover, or on a water blind a point of land that the judges intend for the line to the blind to cross. Let's say the dog gets to the left of it before you can get him stopped. I know the mistake was letting him get there in the first place but now which would be the better damage control.

A. An over to the point.
B. An angle back and bypass the point.

Is there any reason for you to get back to something like this just because the judge wants you hit that point?

Benjy

[eastwoods]

I say cut your losses and accept the mistake and give an angle back. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[D. Walker]

Well if I was at a test and the dog started to drift to sea or the dog started to dig in too early then I would have handled way before - casting to the point you are telling the dog to get up on the point then casting the back past it - I would give an angle cast to tell the dog that I wanted the dog to get back into the water - here is what a foed trialer told me - in training that was a training cast but in a test it would hae been different you just gotta give the cast that is going to put the dog on the bird.

But why give a cast that is going to cause you to have to give another cast to get the correct line.

Watch the other dogs what they are doing and keep an eye on the judges see what kind of bady launguage the judges are giving one another.

David

[eastwoods]

Your title say's it all, there is a "line" to the blind. Angle casts are to much in my book. A correct spin or two or three should get a tight lining dog on line.

Now in a test or trial you choose the best cast to get the bird under control.

But if you angle cast from left to right and then from right to left and back and forth in training your not teaching a lining concept.

[gator]

Your title say's it all, there is a "line" to the blind. Angle casts are to much in my book. A correct spin or two or three should get a tight lining dog on line.

Now in a test or trial you choose the best cast to get the bird under control.

But if you angle cast from left to right and then from right to left and back and forth in training your not teaching a lining concept.

HUH?

angle cast are used, IMHO, so you don't have to beg for that over...angle cast are the result of a quick whistle when the dog gets offline, they offer "slight" correction of an ill-begotten line, and KEEP THE DOG ON LINE....you blow that same quick whistle, give an over and if you got a dog w/ ANY confidence/style, he's gonna over correct before you can get another whistle in...then the ping-ponging starts - very unpleasant.

in the strictest sense, a "literal cast" is a cast that "if taken" it will take the dog straight to the bird w/out the need for anymore whistles....a dog performing "literally" in my book is the more advanced/technical dog...

i ain't gonna "close the book" on anyone that gives an over, then a back, OR count whistles. but, it better be clean brother.

if it was a better/cleaner method (that giving an over, toot, back), i'm thinking more "big-timers" would be doing it. i'm fairly certain tho that most abandon this and adopt a more literal standard for casting at some point in the dog's career....and they do it fairly early too.

again, just my thoughts....gator

[D. Walker]

Your title say's it all, there is a "line" to the blind. Angle casts are to much in my book. A correct spin or two or three should get a tight lining dog on line.

Now in a test or trial you choose the best cast to get the bird under control.

But if you angle cast from left to right and then from right to left and back and forth in training your not teaching a lining concept.

HUH?

angle cast are used, IMHO, so you don't have to beg for that over...angle cast are the result of a quick whistle when the dog gets offline, they offer "slight" correction of an ill-begotten line, and KEEP THE DOG ON LINE....you blow that same quick whistle, give an over and if you got a dog w/ ANY confidence/style, he's gonna over correct before you can get another whistle in...then the ping-ponging starts - very unpleasant.

in the strictest sense, a "literal cast" is a cast that "if taken" it will take the dog straight to the bird w/out the need for anymore whistles....a dog performing "literally" in my book is the more advanced/technical dog...

i ain't gonna "close the book" on anyone that gives an over, then a back, OR count whistles. but, it better be clean brother.

if it was a better/cleaner method (that giving an over, toot, back), i'm thinking more "big-timers" would be doing it. i'm fairly certain tho that most abandon this and adopt a more literal standard for casting at some point in the dog's career....and they do it fairly early too.

again, just my thoughts....gator

Gator I did not teally understand the post either as far as casting back and forth to get the line - I would rather use an angle than an over, but then again it depends on the dogs training level - in my program if I have a transition dog or even a dog that had problems with casting if they take a cast that is awesome and carry it for a long time they can keep at it.

David

[gator]

in my program if I have a transition dog or even a dog that had problems with casting if they take a cast that is awesome and carry it for a long time they can keep at it.

agreed...if he takes the cast i give, that sucker can run to indochina for all i care

gator