Distance or concepts first?

[B3]

This may seem like another dumb question. First of all I know that for marking to be successful the dog needs to be successfully getting the marks. Success leads to success so to speak.

Obviously if we stuck to this rule 100% then we'd still be doing nothing but singles at 50 yds on a golf course forever. So, what I'm asking is how do you gradually push the dogs envelop? Do you push out first with distance? Terrain? or do you introduce multiple gun concepts?

I've seen the Lardy flowchart but its not really that specific. In his video the distances look really far at 8-12 months but his are FT dogs. They are doing wide open doubles that they are just learning and it looks about 150 yds.

On the other hand you go to smartworks and he is introducing multip[le gun set ups to pups while they are still going only 40 yds max. So whats every one elses plan/schedule to develop marking? Distance first or concepts/multiples first? I've trained with a lot of you at some time or another and it seems that some dogs are trained more for multiples at short distance where others are going WAAYYY out there.

Thanks,
Bill

[D. Walker]

Bill,

In my program a dog has to learn how to mark - distance is a huge factor for dogs even thoug they are on golf course type fields - distance falls into the category of confidence - I teach the concept of distance through mark extensions - ABC drills - walking singles - when I have a dog marking to a distance of lets say 100 yds - 200 yds well marks with one factor would be decreased - just for the dog to be successful - of the dog is successful with that one factor then I work on the distance there - it is a flow process - when the dog shows me that they can handle what has been put on the plate then I ask for more - lots of singles off multiple guns is great no matter what the distance is.

Here is Colorado we see a lot of pyramid triples - converging marks - punch bird is usually the go bird - I have only seen one texas inline this year so far - we train mostly field trial set-ups then shorten the distance before the test or test season.

Other than that it is lots of W-drills - ABC drills - Confusion marks - long bird the go bird (punch bird) I even do marking drills that consist of no sound at all that way the dog has to fully focus on the mark regardless of aides.

Several times i have gone to the line no call or shot in a test Judge calls dog or number and off you go - so that is why I do silent marks.

SOmething else in the form on an indent is if you have three guns point them out to oyur dog it reinforces the picture greatly to the dog - yes I know that is not allowed in test, but if you teach the dog how to pick the guns out soon the dog will do it themselves enhancing memory and the view of the picture in the field.

Mix it up in training - if you go out and do a long W-drill or ABC drill move your line instead of the marks gives a totally different view of the set-up.

David

[D. Walker]

Here is a link with some great info:

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/retrievers/index.html

David

[goosebruce]

Can't train on everything at once.

When your teaching anything, you simplfiy. LEss distance, less cover, more help (bird placement, wind right for the birds, really key pictures on marks etc.,). The #1 thing distance does is intinisfy factors, what good does a 200 yard mark do for a dog that hasnt been taught to fight those factors yet? Yet you hear people all the time talking bout their young charge doing 200 yarders, and the point is lost on me personally. Stretching a dog out is a lot easier than teaching one to shoulder a quatering wind.. a long bird down a hill is easier than a short one on a sidehill, etc. As a young dog is coming up, the distance the fall is from the thrower can be as important as the distance of the mark, from the line, as any dog with a few days with a visible gunner will soon learn to drive that gun, and hunt from there.

If there was a flow chart that talked about marking distance, it'd likely cover several pages. Simple marks, wind helping, no cover, visible fall and bird, getting longer, then getting thicker, then without good wind, part of arc obsucred, fall obsucred, terrain changes, then getting longer again... then start over with doubles from the easy side and progress. Hidden guns start with a visible gunstation (holding blind) in the field and the easy part, and get harder, and so on.

Your dog will dictate your progress on marks. Slow dogs fall to more factors to a bigger degree than a faster dog. Some dogs are just gifted markers, and you can just pile it on them. Some need to be held by the paw. What someone elses dog is doing at a certain point, has no bearing on yours. Keep your sucess rate high, and push when its right. Train, dont test, and you'll be surpirsed how fast it comes together in the field with a talented dog, with good basics.

Every concept I teach in marking, I do on a mowed lawn at short distances first. When they see it in the field, they'll already done it in the yard before hand. The mechanics are there, and the concepts are there. The field is just a place to experience it, and build on it.

The exact scenario you described in the other post, I do with my dogs in the yard in simple hand tossed doubles and triples. They KNOW they go to the last bird down, they are mere feet away, and its ingrained from the start. Could you teach it in the field, sure, lots of folks do. But we just got through doing pile work or t work, why not throw a few bumpers with a purpose when done, instead of just letting them run? Concepts, mecahincs of moving with me, selection, everything is done in the yard first. Works for me. travis

[Marty N.]

Bill
Got a trip to the Doctor this morning so had time to check out this site and a few others.
Keep in mind, I am an old field trialer, and I teach my dogs to go long before I worry about concepts, indents or punch birds. Marking is most affected by confidence, so I work on teaching 250 to 300 yard marks with varying degrees of difficulty pending on the dog's tendency's. I DO NOT HANDLE when working on long marks. The bird boy or Max throws another bumper when I see the dog caving into a factor. I do not expect a dog of 6 months on up to smash or even do a great job on that length of a mark for about 2 to 3 weeks. I do expect after about a week for them to start looking out and finding the gun without help fairly quickly. When I see them finding the gun on there own then I add stations in the field and have them run past or thru them to get the long bird. Stations will be set at short around 50 with 3 or 4 more scattered up to 175 or 250 when I see the pup finding the bird boy and keying in on him as he does long walking singles setting the pup up to go in front or behind the stations without bounceing off of them I feel he is ready to go on to learning how to do concepts. After all what is a concept but holding a line to a mark thrown in such a way as to have the dog cave into factors. At the same time as these long singles are going on I am keeping the dog balanced by having a day or two a week with shorter singles 150 175 with a second bird boy at about 50 to 75 doing walking singles that converge on one another. I will try to explain this so that is makes since.
The long bird boy is out at 3:00 and will throw his mark the first angle back. I will send pup to retrieve, when he returns I will leave bumper in mouth facing the mark he just picked up pause and turn to 9:00 where the short bird boy at, signal and he will throw his bird flat. I will take bumper and send pup on easy comand. As he is sent the BB at 3 will movein a semi circle pattern towards 12:00 about 15 or 20 feet so that he is past the fall area of previous mark. When pup returns on short mark leave bumper in mouth pause turn to long BB who will now throw his bumper angle in, following this pattern of each bird boy throwing there bumper,In, flat or angle back as well as moving towards each other the pup gets plenty of work on short after long as well as converging marks. No handling takes place BB help if needed. As pups progress I start BB closer to one another and have them pass and use the drill to teach Over and Under as well as inline.
This is a drill I learned from watching an old time trainer Cotton Pershall use on his entire truck of dogs, over and over. I was the long gun most of the time and it is really surprising how quickly the pups started keying in on me when he came to the line. As time goes by doing the long singles will improve your pups confidence and he will really strart to smack the in his mind short `125 to 150 yard marks.
There is really no wrong way to teach a dog to mark they can either do it or can't. All we can do is enhance what mother nature gave them, Confidence is the key.
Just My 2 cents
Marty

[B3]

So, a plan might be get them going out straight with confidence and then say add a single factor. Run several different marks with that factor. Run lots of singles over thesame terrain factor. I assume as memory birds are introduced its done without factors at first in a flat field.

Why do FT folks cry so much about short memory birds and short retired memory birds? Is it because they are inherently hard or they are overlooked too much during training? Just wondering...

Sorry I know this seems pretty basic but its hard to find an organized program for marking development- its easy to find a litany of concepts to train but finding an organized progression to build on. Thats what I'd like to know.

[Marty N.]

The concern over short memory birds in a field trial relate to the order that they are picked up. Most of the time the dog will have picked up one or two marks at 200 plus yards then have to check down for a short bird 100 or slightly less. Good bird placement on the short bird can give the best marking dogs fits. There tendency after going long will be to overrun the short and get hung up deep by 20 or so yards and not check down. Rember it is a placement game not a qual. game and a big hunt on a bird can be the reason you do not go to the next series.
As far as a schedule for training for marks my preference has been to do about 80 percent singles off of stations and let the concepts take care of themselves. It is to easy to get caught up in concepts for a hunt test dog, I do not feel that you need the constant work on it that a field trial dog needs. If you create good habits on singles with factors of off multiple guns then you are ineffect training not testing and the dog gets the benefit of rarely being corrected for a bad line. After the singles then put it together as a multiple and watch the confidence come. Good lines to the mark are built with singles not by doing multiple marks. There is a whole basket of problems that come with to many multiple's.
If you are worried about memorey or steadiness then shoot the multiple and when dog comes back from go bird read him to see if he indicates the mark then have the second mark thrown againg and pick it up as a single. Follow that up with the third and even the fourth mark thrown and picked up as singles. By the time you get through transition and pattern blinds the dog will be able to Hunt Test level marks Triple's, double's etc without alot of concept training. I really think concept trainig on a young dog is detrimental. Young being a dog just out of transition, even up through the senior level in AKC. If you hit concepts real hard young then there is a chance that a young dog will worry about doing the memorey bird and talk himself out of doing it because he may not want to dock on a down the bank double or go back in and get the long in line. I save technical concepts for later in the training program usually after a senior title.
I would rather have a really relaxed marking dog than one worried about doing a technical down the bank triple. After all I am training hunt test dogs not field trial dogs. That does not mean that my standards are not high. Just that to much to tuff to early is not the way to create a Master Hunter. I do not want to wash out a good dog trying ot fit a field trial program to a hunt test dog. Most of the dogs I get to train would not make it in a field trial environment. And if we are honest with ourselves the dogs we own and train would not make it either. I am not suggesting that our standards should not be high just that we should use reality as our guide when creating a program for our dogs.
Marty

[Glenn]

I think secondary selection is the most important part of doing any type of marking setup. I always on every setup try and work on secondary selection. Get last bird down first, then second closes bird next, then long bird third. Where primary selection is pulling the dog off of last bird down and getting whatever bird the handle wants to get first. Primary selection is very seldom used. So I try and concentrate on a marking setup but really emphasize secondary selection when the dog starts learning marking concepts. If a have three gunners in the field. With a young dog I will do singles in the order I will pick up the birds. Just some feedback on marking concepts.

Hey Marty, you'll have to give us some feedback from Blackwater seminar. Tell Bill hi for me.

[T-Bone]

GOOD STUFF!!


Everything was well said but I especially like what Travis and Marty had to say. Thanks for putting it in a language that a rookie, like myself, can understand. MORE, MORE........

[goosebruce]

Yeah, great post.

Secondary selection is a discpline. For it to work, you need to do it EVERYTIME. The birds you need it on, are the birds the dogs want the other bird first. If you always secondary select, it becomes habit and your dog is used to giving you that control. if you sometimes select, when its time for it to come into play, your fighting your dog in a test, never good. Odds are he'll split the difference and go get the mark he wants, roundabout.

Control is control. Being able to select on the line will add control in other parts of your test. But its also stress on a dog. Remember when your training to balance control with your dog being allowed to be big, and you'll see more benefits of all your training. Every marking set up cant be a giant test of control, overtime the stress adds up (just like any out of balance thing you do). let there be pure d marking and hunting too. A relaxed dog marks better than a stressed dog.

A good marker that can select with a thinking handler, will always do better than a great natrual marker doing it on his own. Its a team sport. A good marker can be made better, but a poor marker needs to be made someone elses. Very few well bred dogs lack the marking abilty needed to play any hunt test game at any level. Most lack the training. Think about it.

If you play hrc long enough, you will find a test a judge determines the order of the birds being picked up. Any judge that decides anything other than the last bird down, is a peice of crap. It happens, rarely anymore, thank goodness, because it makes for an unclean marking test, and makes judges have to give away handles because of something stupid they set up. But it can happen. Would I train a dog to primary select for that reason? No. But I think the control needed to primary select is a good skill to have in a finished dog, and is much more likely to be used in a duck blind than a hunt test. AKC games dont allow judges to select order of marks. Score one for their game, thats for sure. travis