switching

[D. Walker]

I would push him by your reading the dog is doing well with everything else - but remember if you are going to use pressure or even calling the dog back and resending other things can pop up.

In a dogs life they need to learn to be responsible for their actions - if I had the problem here is what I would do in that exact case - this is only after all my foundation is there and the dog has been taught and fully understands the task(s) asked then I would call the dog back - have bird boy step out hey - hey get the dog focused and resend - let the dog to begin the trust factor that when you line him up and send him there is going to be something out there - it is like building trust running blinds same principle - I do not know your dog and how doing this will affect his attitude, but that is what I would do - then when you have given the dog the benefit of doubt - then would be the time to nick and handle - or even call back and resend - but resending is like repeating a mark the same thing could happen just have to take the chance - another option would be to go to another field set up the same thing and see what happens after you have helped the dog and or made corrections - if you repeat on the double all you are doing is saying hey you have been to the short mark before so I am going to let you go there again - not the case if you do the same set-up in the next field - remember this there are always other opportunities down the road, the dog is still young and it is not going to be perfect all the time.

Hope some of this helps.

David

[B3]

NOT trying to defend myself. BUT....I tried to make it hypothetical so the point would be more clear. What really happened:

Dog went to go bird looked for 3 seconds and shot to memory bird. Toot-cast back toward fall-refusal. Toot-nick-cast- CR and dog picks up memory bird. TOOT and dog sits with bumper in mouth. I go out and swat bumper from mouth. Walk dog back to line. Send for go bird again and he steps on it. I did not send him back for the memory bird.

After that I repeated the same double and he nailed it-don't know if it was the right thing to do or not but repeated same double the next day and he nailed it in a different location.

At the time I read it as not confusion but going for what was easy on his own terms. I could be wrong-this dog has never lacked confidence on marks and will hunt an area hard til he finds it. This was the first time I had ever seen him not hunt for the bird.

[D. Walker]

Well I think that you are on the right track - dog was successful the next day different location - in this case I would have blown the whistle walked out in the field commanded fetch walked back to the line sent the dog for the memory bird.

That is weird that the dog went to the go bird three seconds the dog was there and then went for the memory bird - was the wind in a position to create this?

It is just going to take time with the dog......when you handled and the dog had some CR's then it turn into a trainability issue. The dog is young it will all come together - Patience......

Have you been doing a lot of long bird forst then pick up the short bird?

David

[B3]

He's had a lot more short memory birds than long ones. Mostly he's had singles-long,then short,then long,etc. 90+% singles. Unfortunately mostly off of launchers. Wind shouldn't have affected.

Little sucker caught me by surprise. Whistle wasn't in my mouth so when I blew he was right on the memory bird. I was trying to handle him from off right on top of it. Not really his fault at that point. My screw up but I've had that whistle in my mouth since then.

I'm just trying to learn here. Whats in a dogs mind when he switches? Lack of confidence? Or in some cases is it doing whats easy? Doing what takes the least effort in his mind?

[D. Walker]

You know that is a great question "what is in a dogs mind when switching"

My belief depends on the dog where the dog is in training - it is sort of like a dog that shops on a pile gotta get them all Dad.

David

[goosebruce]

DW, ya didnt read whut I wrote... ff is the basics of go as sent, not the entire enchilda. When a ff'd dog is sent, he has an OBLIGATION to retreive & any actions of his that stop that process are most defiently a breakdown in the ff process. No different than switching on a diversion, switching fall areas is stopping a retreive that is supposed to be a condtioned responce with consequences for the properly ff'd dog. He went to the fall area, so he knew there was clearly 2 different birds out there in b3's example (but intrestingly enough not clear in meekas example), but only made a short pass thru, then on to the bird HE wanted. I got a littermate (my moms dog), I know they love to run long and will jump over a short bird down last to go to THEIR choice. That is most defiently a ff issue, as the retreiving is now on his terms. Go as sent is developed on lining drills, but only works because of the ff mentailty... as you increase proficeny, you reduce angles, and can do that because once the dog understands WHAT bird you are sending to, its his obligation to finish the retreive you indicated.

Should you have stopped dog? Defiently. Should you have taught with a handle? Defiently. Should you have corrected for the cast refusuals? Defiently. If a dog handles well enough for you to be handling him in field, he should be responbile for it. Once I showed it, and taught it, I wouldnt be afraid if I had to stop him again to walk out and ear pinch to the blown over mark. Because if he knew where it was, and he knew it was the bird to get first (those are the 2 things you have to know for certain), him blowing it off after a quick spin is giving you the paw as certain as him dropping a bumper at your feet and mouthing it.

Does this mean the dog has a hole in ff? Dunno, aint seen him nuff to tell you. But I can tell you, if you put it on those terms with him, you'll soon see a dog hunt till his tounge is out of his head, without ever thinking of blowing out for the long cheese bird. He'll realize its his job to stay with a selected fall, and the problem is soon gone forever. If you dont put it on those terms with him, hes driving. And hes too damn wild to drive on his own. travis

[D. Walker]

Here is a direct link to head swinging and switching:

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/retrievers/rj26.html

David

[goosebruce]

Great remark... dw wrote- You know that is a great question "what is in a dogs mind when switching"

My belief depends on the dog where the dog is in training - it is sort of like a dog that shops on a pile gotta get them all Dad.

Something we gotta remember! travis

[B3]

Great points from everybody. You know, I never thought of shopping and switching being related but it makes sense. This would definitely be a personal record shop for him.

Travis, what you describe is how I was reading him . A cop out /lack of effort on a retrieve that he was sent for.

[goosebruce]

Jimmy Dobbs wrote... Another problem that usually occurs while teaching double marks is switching. This is when a dog breaks his commitment to retrieving the “go bird”, to go and retrieve the memory bird instead. Dunno bout you pro-plan heads, but commitment to me comes from FORCE FETCH. bwhahahaha. I knew dw secretly agreed with me, and he went and found a post to document it!

But hey, I teach diversions (bulldogs to you aksea types) by telling a dog to HOLD (because to switch he has to spit a bird out, and he knows the consequences of that already, so he has to finish the retreive he started before he can go to another one).

Bill, I seen a few REALLY talented dogs that had a bad habit of playing round up if there was a drawn out hunt in a series of marks. I seen a few REALLY talented dogs that liked to run over a bird, sometimes by several hunder yards, only to come back and step on it. Average dogs cant get out of the hole they dig, so they rarely do, the talented ones, especially the smart talented ones, like to dig holes to prove how great they are. Lots of people are content to watch their dog dig out of holes, until the level of difficulty gets hard enough, they no longer can see daylite from the hole they dug. Fix it now, never let it happen. The fact they can come back and clean it up doesnt matter, and its why EVERY dog game punishes it even if they call it something different. travis