switching

[B3]

I was wondering how others treat a switch. 14 mo BLM who is doing mostly singles off multiple guns. Has run a fair amount of tight set ups as singles. Has done simple doubles and triples.

Yesterday shot a hip pocket double and sent for short bird as go bird. Makes a loop through fall and doesn't see it and shoots straight for long bird.

How do ya'll handle it? Seemed like a cop out to me. Didn't make an effort to hunt go bird so I corrected and handled back to go bird fall area. Then sent for memory bird. Is this how others handle this? I've never encountered this before with this dog.

Thanks,
Bill

[Meeka]

In a test, that has once been judged OK, cause he didn't set up a hunt at the go bird.

Id like to know too, cause I we did the same thing Wed. Mine went right past the short go bird. But I think it was (must have been) caused by not seeing the throw, for what reason, I don't know. Was doing it in cover, and now see if you are gonna try real tight stuff, it probably ought to be real clean first, huh?

[B3]

This is different. Dog goes straight to fall and doesn't see it right off so goes "screw it , I'll try the other mark" and shoots straight for the memory bird. The question is do you correct or not?i.e. sit-nick-sit-cast back to go bird

[70 sprig]

B , I'm not a pro , I'm workin on my first dawg , if it's me he's gonna stay with that bird til he pics it up . Seems like a bad thing to let him get away with , if I have to handle him to the mark in order to make him pic it up then that's what we'll do , but he ain't gonna switch just cause it's too HARD . If it was easy I would have gotten a brown dog

[MD11Pilot]

Need more info for a good answer. If you haven't specifically worked on switching, it might be preferable to have the gun help get the dog back to the area of the fall with a "hey, hey!" or similar. Winger thrown bird? This is where remote throwers suck for young dogs...you got no help out there! I would try handling back to the correct fall without correction...in other words use attrition until you think he understands the concept.

Or, you can do like I did last weekend after driving from Pensacola to Cleveland (Ohio) to run a AKC Master and watch flat-footed whilst your dawg switches on the first series (flower pot...and oh yeah, the bird boys were getting their timing off a bit and BOTH birds were in the air at the same time!). Yep, I'm whining. Anyhow... Ouch! That was a loooong drive back home lemme tell ya! (Based on results in my 2nd paragraph, guess you should ignore my "advice" in the first paragraph! )

[Glenn]

agree with MD11. With a 14 mo. I would always help the the dog first. Repeat the set up after getting the go bird. Just shoot the double again. If he goes gets the short bird then I would think the dog learned something. I would always give the benefit of the doubt to a young dog. He might not have seen the go bird very good. Hope this helps

[B3]

One of the pitfalls of training alone with launchers. No birdboy to help. Thanks. Need to simplify and make the setup less tight I reckon.

[D. Walker]

I would simplify it also - then when the components have been taught with factors then I would go to other alternatives;


Teach
Attrition
Handle
Correct

David

[Troy Williams]

I was wondering how others treat a switch. 14 mo BLM who is doing mostly singles off multiple guns. Has run a fair amount of tight set ups as singles. Has done simple doubles and triples.

Yesterday shot a hip pocket double and sent for short bird as go bird. Makes a loop through fall and doesn't see it and shoots straight for long bird.

A hip-pocket is a semi-advanced to advanced concept especially when coupled with mulitple factors. I would expect a failure with a 14 mo pup.

I've never encountered this before with this dog.

Then always give the dog the benefit of the doubt. Probably should have just handled to avoid the switch if you had no other recourse like a BirdBoy to intercept or help with the short bird. You broke a fundamental rule and used pressure to teach.

[gator]

troy, were ya been dude?

FWIW, i was sorta thinking along those same lines, but have learned that it's "often" best if i just keep my mouth shut....gator

[Troy Williams]

Been in Chicago all week working......We missed you at Steve's last week.

.

[goosebruce]

Switching is a force fetch issue..... the basics of 'go as sent' are the dog is to go where sent, and for what and there is no alternative or room for bargining or doing it their way. Advanced marking concepts (like a hip pocket or an inline) confuse the dog because they have to realize there is 2 different falls, and see each of them for what they are. Thats why they are a good test of marking, and training. Not allowing the switch is a correction in the strictest sense of the word, because the dog decided to go to other fall, and you prevented it. It is a VERY bad habit for a dog to get into, to give up on a tough bird to go to the cheese, cuase he thinks hes smart enough to know where all of them are. He very well may today, but it'll happen as often as not he doesnt in his new order. Selection adds to this overall control, and adds to the desiscivness of each bird stands alone.

Another hunt test killer, is the memory bird is upwind of the go bird, espeically on water where dogs go slower and are more effected. Teach it, do not allow it, and it wont be long on the finished line you'll be glad you did. travis

[D. Walker]

Travis - I will have to dissagree with you that it is a FF issue - FF is a seperate issue - now what the issue is here is multiple things:

FF would nto be the result of going when sent FF is the result of picking up certain objects retrieved - meaning just because the dog is Forced does not mean that the dog has been through the learning process of going as sent - going as sent is the result of drills - linning drills.

Push pull drills then applied in the field - so does this mean that I am going to take a 6 month old FF dog and throw a hippockit for the dog and expect it to go as sent - I think not. But I would expect the dog to pick up a single.

Age
Factors
Tightness of falls
The picture has not been taught

These leads to a spinoff of the variables

1- young dog - teach it even if you have to show the concept multiple times
2- the dog has bnot been taught to avoid old falls
3 - through repetition and training you can teach the concept so the dog understands.

David[/b]

[gator]

troy, wish i coulda made the deal at steve's myself....sounded like a good time. i'm just an ole working stiff tho and that was my weekend to work. some folks get the glitz and glamour, the pizza and bars, the big city and bright lights, while others get to deal w/ 10 crackheads, 4 pimps, 2 shootings and a retired clown/pedaphile w/ a jelly jar up his booty.....blackson at it's best

{sorry for using the "a-word", it just felt right....barn, feel free to edit }

gator

[B3]

Just a little more background so's ya'll don't think I just threw him to the wolves. He's been running a lot of tight singles off multiple stickmen. He's been thru old falls and has run singles off the back side of guns many times. He's done converging doubles and wide open triples. He's done well on this so we have moved tighter. This was a "hip pocket " but it wasn't that tight.

Goes straight to short bird at 60 yds and looks like he's stepped on it. Stops at fall for about 3 seconds looks back and run straight at memory bird fall area 40 yds away.Did not even try to put on a hunt. Whistle not in my mouth so a little late blowing. Toot-cast and he still goes for memory bird. In my mind he made a decision.

I'm assuming that at some point it will occur to any dog to switch once you make the task hard enough? At some point don't you need to push him? Once he does you need to be ready. I wasn't. I should have had human throwers for a newer concept that was a set up for failure so they could have hey heyed him back to go bird. The way he was going for the memory bird I don't know if he'd stopped. At that point what would you do? I know I'm hypothetical here because I fugged it up in real life on this one