Cast refusals

[Meeka]

Seems like lately, I get a couple cast refusals when I try to adjust a direction. Seems like he has a destination or a direction in mind, and I have to stop and cast a couple times before he commits to the change in direction. Can be water or land. It seems like after the 2nd or 3rd try, it is like he thinks to himself, "Well, I guess he really does want me to go that way".

While I think he is just not paying attention to the first few casts, I guess it could be something else. I realize that we have been incorporating angle backs and distinguishing them from the other casts, and that might have something to do with it. That's one guess. The other is that we are only training 2-3 times a week, and it seems like more 2 times a week than 3 lately. Typically we do marks one day and a couple blinds. Other days we do casting drills and pattern blinds, across a pond frequently.

[B3]

Meeka, assuming you are still non collar I'd crack down on him hard next time your sure he's given you the finger. I'd go NO and run out and grab him and drag him to the spot of the CR and stand right in front of him and recast.

Just what I've done-may not be exactly right though.

[BrettG]

You do realize that some of our dogs think they know where they are going no matter what you do.

[Troy Williams]

MOMENTUM.....you have momentum in a direction...You can counter momentum with a 'come-in' for a few yards or several yards...Depends on degree of momentum. Also, think like a dog. It could be the way you are setting your tests up.

OR

Could be the heat...It does keep dogs from thinking clearly. It could be a number of things or it could be disobedience...only you can answer that. You must deal with disobedience however you deal with disobedience.

Most of the time it is a FACTOR of some sort before it is disobedience. FACTOR=wind, terrain, cover, diversions(diversions=old falls, old blinds from a couple of days ago, etc....) etc, etc, etc......

[Doc & Nash]

What ever the reason,, If you let him get away with it then it will only get worse. It is kinda like what Barney would say "NIP IT IN THE BUD"

[Marty N.]

Meeka
Before you start looking for a correction for a cast refusal, I would make sure that you are comunicating what it is that you want on the cast. Make sure that you are not moving prior to the cast in either direction. If you move to the right to see the dog better after he has sat and is looking at you then give a left cast he will not take it but go the direction that you moved. Also I would check the background behind you to ensure that the dog can see you, sometimes we forget that a dark shirt with a treeline or a shadow behind us makes us invisible to the dog.
If you are sure that it is a blatant cast refusal then let the punishment meet the crime. Just be sure that the correctin is black and white to the dog. One more thing I would try before a correction for a cast refusal would be to slow down the timing of your cast. If you cast on a three count then I would go to a 6 count. The slowing down of cast will alot of times insure that you get the correct cast every time.
Just my 2 cents.
Marty

[D. Walker]

Meeka - you answered your own question - he is thinking for himself - not being a team player - sure slowing down the cast might work, but generally in these situations you have a dog that thinks that it has it all figured out.

Now when I am in this situation it is back to drills - something that is going ot give me lots of casting chances and or corrections.

Attrition would be the first step - wear the dog down and make the dog take the cast weather you have to tweet the dog back to the same spot over and over.

Once I have done some drills and done the attrition I would defenetly go the route of - well you want to do it your way well now it is time to do it my way.

I do not know the quick fix as I am not there to read it for myself.

Awhile back I posted an advanced drill casting from one pile stopping the dog and casting to another. This drill may help you and the dog.

Then there is three leg great to do in just about any place - the thing with this dog is I think you need to keep it thinking all of the time.

I would not run memory blinds school blinds or any blinds where the dog has been before reason for this is if the dog knows where something has been previously well then the dog will start to work alone again.

Hope some of this helps you and your dog.

[duckamateur]

Very interesting read and something I have wondered about!!!!! Hats off to everyone!!!!!! Very well thought out comments! A post like this is what a Forum is about!!!

[Meeka]

He knows what the casts are, I guess, cause the last time out we started with casts and he was 100%. But that is the first time he has been absolutly 100% on both angle backs and both backs all at the same time.

Bill, I have been using "no" here lately in an effort to get the direction cleared out of his mind. I'm wondering if there is a problem doing that too much though. Quiet frankly i've gotten lazy and don't need a whistle at all for 95% of the situations I can use a notloud "no" to stop him in place of a whistle.

He has had good momentum these days, so I think I'm gonna do call backs when he does not take the precise line, so long as we keep momentum doing that.

I'm not on the collar yet, so I might try to correct remote casts by actually going out and getting him back to the spot, which he would see as a HUGE correction and would hurt his feelings bad, and shorten the distance between us and recast. As I type this, I'm thinking a couple of those might really work well.

I think doing less pattern stuff may be a good idea too. And I think doing the cast away from a pile trick could be just the ticket. Kinda cruel in a neat sorta way. I'm sure not to be overdone; can see how it could be a momentum killer. Couldn't see it then, but can now.

We've got to get back to the point when the light went off in his head the first day we succesfully did cold blinds with ducks. It dawned on him that I knew where he needed to go and he could get there by going where I told him to go. Now, he has to be stopped once or twice, before he figures out "hey I need to go over there."

Anyway, I got some good ideas and I preciate it. Thanks. Wouldn't mind hearing a few more. I'm not sure I even now know WHY we got here.

[Troy Williams]

Remember to always come back with the same cast that you didn't get initially.

I like what Marty said about the long delay on the cast...i think he said 6 seconds or so.

[B3]

I'd use NO when he takes the wrong cast but blow the whistle and cast again. I'd use the run out and drag back to the same spot for a WR but it might not be as clear on a CR. If your sure he's screwing around then I'd run out and do a SIT swat with a heeling stick-SIT like indirect pressure. I've done this with Teal a good bit. An unnamed author/trainer calls it "sorting him out" and it seems like amish indirect pressure to me.

Another amish drill you could use is casting away from the pile but cast to a duck. Just thinking here. Wheres amish Gator on this one?

[eastwoods]

Lot's of good points above, I personally like D Walker's the best.

One more thing to keep in mind: a noncollar dog wil not advance at the same speed a collar dog will, not that you will not be able to reach the same endpoint. With that said I doubt you can compete in field trials today without a collar with most dogs.

Now don't go get a collar because I said that, just it's gonna' take you a little longer to do what collar people do.

One more idea for a noncollar dog only.

When the dog takes the wrong cast and you know it did (knowing it did is very important) just go to the truck and let the dog run to the next county. Do this over an over until the dog takes the right cast and learns it's a team effort. If I take the wrong cast he's leaving my ass out here.

That's the kind of mentallity you use with noncollar dogs. You can't force the issue like the collar dog people can. That's why it takes longer.

With that said you maintain momentum, I would less prone to do this on a slow dog. With that said you can't do much with a slow dog anyway collar or no collar.

Don't be afraid to run that dog down and beat some you know what, but again watch momentum and know in your heart of heart the dog knows what the cast was and was doing it their way and not working with you.

[gator]

bill, some folks gotta work

i've been watching this thread for a few days, but didn't wanna post nothing just yet....just wanted to see what other folks have to say and how they think....just curious i guess.

w/ that said, i'll see if i've got anything that can help:

prolly gonna do some quoting so i can keep my thoughts together.

meeka, for me, i do NOT like calling back in - especially more than once. i just don't believe a dog thinks, "aight, can't go there, so i have to go....HERE." sorry, don't buy it. i know lardy does it, and he does it effectively, but he's seen HUNDREDS of dogs and has a vast understanding of different dogs and their needs. in essence, he KNOWS, when a dog needs to be called back vs. when a cast will get the same effect....others on here prolly do to, i don't, so i don't do it too much...i just think for the average dude, calling a dog back does more to hurt the situation than help - dog goes 10 yds and hear's "NO! HERE!!" over and over....welp, it's gotta have some psycological effects...would on me.

and, man, i gotta wonder what in the WORLD letting a dog run around in the wrong direction is gonna do.....dogs do NOT rationalize like that. that dog ain't out there going, "dam, i fugged up, and he's just gonna leave me out here....i better straighten up." man, that dog's (a LAB) is out there thinking, "YIIIIIPPEEEEEEE!!!!! OH! look at the butterfly, FUN....OH! a tree...FUN, GOTTA PISS!" and so on and so forth....man, that's a VERY HIGH LEVEL OF THINKING....hell, i don't know many teenagers that make the connection either...seems to me, in the black and white world we try to provide, that leaves ALOT to be interpretated by a DOG....A DOG.

now, david brings his drill back up, and trav, myself, et al had ALOT of fun w/ him for a few days w/ it...but, i STILL do NOT like this drill in this setting. reason is, i just think w/ this dog (given his training) you're setting yourself up for MORE confusion....meaning, you're sending to a pile and when there, you're casting OFF A PILE to another, yet unseen pile...you're adding MORE MEAT for a dog to chew on, that's shown he can't handle what you asking already...."maybe" a dog on the collar will get the idea w/ that instantateous "nick", but this dog don't have that luxury...so you're running out and correcting at a pile, for not going to another....i gotta think the dog's wondering "WTF!"...

dave, i want you to know, i ain't saying it ain't a good idea. you've seen more dogs. let's just say, until i see it from you, i'm gonna shy away from it

i DO like marty's "slow, deliberate" cast thoughts....it's a POWERFUL tool. never knew how powerful it was until i started doing this...that delay brings the dog's focus back to you...i betcha you'll notice a big improvement in cast if you start doing this...

**gauge was having trouble w/ taking casts in certain enviroments, and i found that he was 'stopping' to whistle, but almost immediately turning again "guessing" the cast to be given...only way i found out the problem was i got so mad one day, i bit down on the whistle so hard it shattered....looked up and he was swimming...dawned on me what was going on - he was training me to give cast quick...slowed down, made him focus on me and noticed almost immediate improvement...POWERFUL TOOL**

now, about corrections....i REALLY don't think a CR or 2 or hell, even 3 warrants a burn or beating - whichever your correction du jour....why??? b/c he's stopping and going when asks....how in the world do you KNOW he's not being a team player????? how do you know it's not environment (shadows, overcasts, etc) like marty implied....OR some unseen factor is too much, keeping the correct casts from being taken...i make a run ONLY when every other possible cause has been ruled-out....

folks just TOO quick to the collar - cause it's "easy"....that dam thing ain't EVER taught a dog nothin....you get a wrong cast - TOOT! bring in and recast....happens again....TOOOOOOOTTTT!!!! bring in and recasts... and so on...troy hit on something that i don't think many people think about....when you call that dog in, 9 times outta 10, there gonna come back at an angle of some sort "generally" CLOSER to the line you need....i don't know why it happens but this served MUCH confusion for me early on...found myself then giving a cast to get to the bird.....not teaching a dam thing, but running that blind like i was at a test....when this happens, i give the EXACT same cast EVERYTIME, even if it's gonna take em off-line the opposite way...why??? b/c now, when i'm training and i don't get THE cast i want - fugg the bird - i WANT THE CAST!!! and i'm gonna keep giving it, til i get it...

honestly, the most successful pro's out there don't train much different (correction wise) today vs. 30 years ago - the GOOD one's anyway...sure, Lardy uses the collar, but i gleened alot from troy up in nashville....he says that dude gives the dog EVERY benefit of the doubt, BUT when it's time, IT'S TIME...

might i suggest, if you are burning your dog at every turn, please FEEL FREE to strap that collar on your neck, turn it up HIGH, and let the dog chew on the transmitter

gator

[B3]

Gator, when I'm picturing the cast off the pile I think of setting the dog up so he learns that he better trust you instead of what HE thinks the next cast should be. It seems like a way to get a message across without collar pressure.

We're talking about a dog who's not learning casting but one who knows casting and is doing things his way because he thinks he knows better. With the collar you can hit the button and remind him real quick who's in charge. Or you can run out and and do the same thing with a stick. This seems to me another tool to use to get the point across.

I've seen a variation of the cast off the seen pile to an unseen reward i.e. a duck. It seemed to make the dog think "maybe I ain't as smart as this guy, if I follow him I get a duck" Also seen it as a cast off a mark. Seems like a good tool for an overconfident out of balance dog to me. Obviously it won't teach him to handle but it might make him more willing to handle without using force.

Lots of good information in this thread. Looks like no training today-the Arlene storm is here.

[Troy Williams]

Careful with the "NO" for wrong cast. Dog may get confused with the action of taking a cast rather than wrong direction....just seems to cloud the mind a bit. Use YOUR 'command-correction' sequence and stay consistent.