PERMANENT 40 & 4

[Anatidae]

I think the USF&WS oughta send out a quesitonaire with questions like.....

• What's the best gun
• what's the best shotshell
• what's the best decoy
• what's the best duck call
• what's your favorite truck
• what's your favorite WMA
• do you think DU is shortstopping ducks
• define shortstopping
• define DU
• ....and so on.

Anybody that responds to the questionaire and returns the form to the USF&WS is automatically denied eligibility for a license to hunt ducks.

Oh yeah.....one more question.......(yes or no)....

• Is lead shot attracted to a magnet?

[Hammer]

RE MOTLETT: As Red Eye indicated, there isnt much science in the equation now...For example, it has taken Delta Waterfowl's tireless efforts to prove that predation rates found in the 1950s of 10-15% had risen to more like 80%-90% in the 1990s/2000s...DU fought and is still fighting that concept...So your comment on "taking out the science" is invalid...The "science" has long since been taken out...

Likewise there are two differing scientific theories on the effect of hunting on duck populations...The "addiditive" theory says that hunting has an effect above and beyond natural mortality...The "compensatory mortality" theory says that the ducks would die anyway...Proponents of AHM support the later theory...Hunters such as myself whom have hunted ducks for 30+ years and hunted them with fathers whom hunted for 50+ years before that believe that the "additive" theory is more valid...Certainly the experience with pintail numbers/limits that resulted in bag limit changes from 1 to 3 to 1 during the middle of the wet cycle showed that hunting mortality for pintails during that time was additive...

Getting back to the data, aerial surveys are conducted on transects used since the 1950s...No GIS or other state of the art technology- frigging aerial observations instead...Fact is nobody has any idea how many ducks are in North America...The fall flight is an INDEX only, not a numerical count...Until that data deficiency is solved, biologists are shooting in the dark and then the politics gets layered on top of that so unlike deer, elk, turkeys, etc that are a massive wildlife conservation success story, ducks are still a threatened resource...Habitat and drought are part of it but it is way more complex than that...

No one can argue that we are on a downward trend from the glory days of only 100 years ago and the occassional bump up during wet cycles is no reason for celebration...I want a fall flight of 500 MM ducks and given the resources being put into ducks, there is no reason that cant happen except politics prevents rational allocation of our dollars...Duck hunters are our own worst enemy by accepting the downward trend, getting hyped up/greedy during the occassional bump up and killing more ducks than we should...40/4 would be one way to deal with this.

HAMMER

[qckmstr]

really don't matter to me.. we'll have a good time regardless of the dates or the numbers.... oh yeah i also agree with duckhntr... DAMN A SNAKE.

[Wildfowler]

For example, it has taken Delta Waterfowl's tireless efforts to prove that predation rates found in the 1950s of 10-15% had risen to more like 80%-90% in the 1990s/2000s...

80-90%? Can this possibly be true? Is DW saying that predators are killing off 80-90% of the ducks? If this is really true, then what's different now on the breeding landscape now that wasn't occurring in the 50's to have created such a change? Whatever it is, seems to me that we as hunters should all strive to change the landscape back to the days of the 50's.

I'll admit it, I'm a wee bit spectacle of these numbers because we hunters also kill off about 7% of the population each year. With both of these figures in place, the ducks should probably be extinct by now. Is there a link or something you can provide me. Or even an DW magazine issue and page number referencing these figures and how they were derived. I am a paying member.

I guess we as hunters should band together and all agree to start buy our wives and girlfriends a new "REAL" fur coat every year. I guess it's a small price to pay. We'll just have to factor that into the price of duck hunting.

[Wildfowler]

DU fought and is still fighting that concept

I don't understand why this should keep DW from doing something productive with their research. What's DU got to do with DW's ability to deploy their predator management program?

They are two different organizations, can't DW just go do what it wants to do?

[qckmstr]

that's a great idea anatidae.. you might be on to something... or the ones that reply should all have to hunt together for life..

[mallardshooter]

I couldn't have said it better Hammer. I don't necessarily buy the high percentage of predation, but my bet is greater than 50% loss due to nest robbing/destruction.
As far as DU vs DW, follow the money. DW makes no bones that they are researching to increase migratory fowl numbers to lay guide lines for hunting. DU, on the other hand, is more of a political organization. Yes, they get more money from Congress for wetland conservation, but they play down the fact that they are an organization made up primarily hunters. If DU said to increase predator hunting in the nesting grounds, the "public" outcry would be deafening. "What? Kill a poor helpless coyote?! Trap a beautiful skunk?!" Most non-hunters don't see the connection between predation and decrease bird populations. They see elk & turkey restocking as apples & apples with duck nesting ground increases. More wetland = more ducks. An example that all hunters can understand. Think of how the coyote numbers have increased over the past 10 years. All these dogs have to eat something, like rabbits. I have personally seen the rabbit numbers drop off the page the last several years.
I'm sure that the DU "union guys" will take exception to some of these things, but preception is the truth. Lastly, think about membership numbers in each organization. DU has many more mermbers, who are proud of the cool stickers on their trucks, but the members of DW are informed about the mission of the organization.

[mottlet]

Well, I've been "invalidated," so I guess that's that.

mottlet

[sondance]

I don't have a problem with a shorter season nor fewer ducks in the bag. Extending thes season close would be great. We don't really get cold weather to push them unitl then. HOWEVER, it won't happen nor should it. Actually, going until the Jan 30th is pushing it. Ducks start pairing up for breeding then. Think about it. How many ducks did you shoot late this year where they were paired? I know in my case almost all of them. If you break the pair do they find another or do you miss a cycle? I wonder if they could be part of the reason we are seeing fewer ducks in the pond counts. I would be curious to hear from someone like SB with a waterfowl biology background.

[mottlet]

but preception is the truth.

What a sage piece of advice. Because we all know that the way we perceive things is always the honest truth.

Please don't invalidate me.

mottlet

[Millenium Mallard]

go back to the point system.....no more than one hen mallard/ever....40 or less days would be ok....close the season more during the weekdays....make it last to at least end of Jan, maybe first Sunday in February....the whole pairing ordeal is bullsshhhhitttttake.....you can't tell me that if you kill a mate in January that a duck wouldn't find another one on the way back north....down here in the south, we've got mottled ducks that mate with every male that can pin her down.....
.02
St.

[Hammer]

REGARDING PREDATION RATES:

"Scientists say ducks must achieve 15 to 20 percent nest success in order to maintain the existing population, but scientific research showed that across much of the PPR, nest success had slipped below that level by 1990. Nest-raiding and hen-eating predators are known to be the major reason that nest success had slipped below maintenance levels."

2004 PREDATOR MANAGEMENT UPDATE, DELTA WATERFOWL WEBSITE.
http://WWW.DELTAWATERFOWL.ORG

So think about that the next time you are shooting your 6 duck limit/making a post about the good old days of the 100 point system/etc but lets talk about the Big Picture first...

BIG PICTURE

Farmers destroy nesting habitat to grow crops that are in such abundance that they sell for prices that are below the cost of producing them, what habitat is left and/or is restored via CRP/WRP in the US and DU in Canada, is raided by skunks, foxes, coons, coyotes, hawks, etc and yet the "DUCK INDUSTRY" wants liberal seasons and bag limits to maximize their profits...

THE PROBLEM

The problem, of course, is that most of yall dont know the truth and you dont want to know the truth so you are content to argue about spinners, season lengths, short stopping, etc...The truth is that even if the fall flight index of 100MM was really 100MM ducks, that is nothing compared to 100 years ago...We should be working towards a fall flight of 500MM ducks so there are so many ducks that none of the usual excuses about why we have no ducks would matter...Instead, DU, FWS and the other snake oil salesmen involved in the NAWMP set an artificially low "goal" of 100MM ducks so as not to upset the powers that be in American agribusiness...

The bottomline is this: American and Canadian Farmers have cleared up and are farming too much nesting habitat in the PPR to sustain the fall flights that serious waterfowlers want to see...These farming efforts have been paid for, either directly or indirectly, by US taxpayers...The crops produced sell at prices that are below the cost of producing them even though the true cost of production (which would include pollution, habitat degradation, etc) are not reflected in market prices...

In the short run, we are forced to deal with the symptoms of the loss of habitat which include artificially high predation rates due to concentrated habitat, whether hunters shoot steel shot or lead shot (if there were 500MM ducks nobody would care what shot we used), whether hunters use spinners or not, how long the season is, when it ends, etc...

Ducks hunters could and should lead a revolt against agricultural subsidies that dont contain an implicit counterbalancing offset to the unintended consequences of such subsidies...CRP/WRP in the US are an example of a counterbalance but those programs should be vastly enlarged and a Canadian version should be developed and implemented on a massive scale...DELTA WATERFOWL is in fact working on such an approach in Canada that they call "ALUS- Alternative Land Use Services"....As of yet, DU is not supporting ALUS.

Now you know the rest of the story.

HAMMER

[mottlet]

Nope...now you're invalid too.

DU got on board with the amendment to the Farm Bill in 02 that put some subsidy money into conservation programs. Exactly like you've suggested. Only problem was the huge backlash from farmers AND duck hunters who blasted DU for forgetting who brought them to the dance. Pardon me, but I figured the ducks brought DU to the dance, Farmers Unlimited just doesn't really have a ring too it, but I digress. Nobody yell at me...I like farmers. But I like ducks too.

This is exactly why habitat conservation is so important. BECAUSE THERE IS NONE LEFT!!! Before I get slammed (more than the requisite amount), understand that I'm talking breeding grounds here. Plus, I think that if we had more breeding grounds, we'd have more ducks and then we wouldn't have the wintering habitat that we THINK we have an overabundance of NOW.

Anyway, I'd hate for the beet market to crash, all of the breeding grounds put back into CRP, there be ducks everywhere, and us be sitting here with our thumbs up our azzes with a forty day season and a four duck limit.

snake oil....that's cute.

mottlet

[Hammer]

You did not read my post carefully enough Motlett...This is what I said:

"DELTA WATERFOWL is in fact working on such an approach in Canada that they call "ALUS- Alternative Land Use Services"....As of yet, DU is not supporting ALUS."

ALUS is a Canadian program being promoted by DW in Canada. The 2002 Farm Bill is a US law created by the US Congress for US agriculture.

Despite your confusion on the above, we do agree that there is no such thing as "surplus wintering habitat" since said habitat is only "surplus" due to an overall shortage of ducks...Having said that, not a dime of DU, federal or state money should be spent on the wintering grounds until the breeding grounds are secure...That has obviously not happened and it is ridiculous...The overwhelming need is for breeding habitat and better utilization of that breeding habitat yet DU is putting pipes in beanfields, building $20MM office buildings in Memphis and telling us how good we've got it.

Your last comment about 40/4 is ridiculous...Obviously 40 and 4 like 60 and 6 is relative to overall duck populations...If there were 500MM ducks in the fall flight, the season would obviosly be adjusted.

HAMMER

[mottlet]

Naw, it ain't ridiculous. The title of the thread is "Permanent 40 and 4." I took the "permanent" part to mean that there would be no adjusting. Guess I'll have to go back and harass my second grade teacher for not properly educating me on ALL of the meanings for permanent.

I just brought up the Farm Bill to point out that a lot of folks are a little late getting to "we need more habitat" party. A lot of the DU-haters got their start with the 02 Farm Bill. But now that we've gotten a few lackluster seasons under our belt, everybody's screaming for more breeding habitat. Remember the big fuss when everybody found out that MS duck stamp money was being donated to DU and that the money was being spent in the breeding grounds? Lotsa folks, a lot of them right here on this site, were OUTRAGED that this money wasn't staying in the state of Mississippi.

I'm not sure, but I think DU is getting out of the pipe business down here. Have to ask Chad to find out for sure. But I know that the guy doing a whole lot of their pipe work isn't doing it anymore.

I think it's great, that DW is supporting ALUS. I don't know why DU isn't supporting it. But I also don't know what "alternative uses" are being considered? Is it like CRP? If it is, great. Should have been enacted years ago. If it's not, then I'm gonna withhold judgement until I know a little more. But I do know that it's going to take a lot more than ALUS to push the fall flight index to 500 million birds, if it's even feasible at all. Farming ducks isn't the most profitable business on the praries.

mottlet