At what point in development?

[EvanG]

At what point in development do you feel a dog becomes a "handling dog"? 3-handed casting? Mini-T? Single or Double T? Swim-by? When? What attributes do you need to see to make that assessment?

EvanG

[EvanG]

72 views and no one with a clue?

EvanG

[GulfCoast]

When the dog can be handled off a mark, and then run a blind with compounding factors (poison bird), then it is a handling dog, versus a "casting dog." Its no great shakes to teach one to "cast." Teaching one to the point it will "handle" is a different animal. YMMV.

[fishduck]

Opinions are like elbows but here is mine. I consider a dog handling when it is proficient at running cold blinds on land and water.

[EvanG]

When the dog can be handled off a mark, and then run a blind with compounding factors (poison bird), then it is a handling dog, versus a "casting dog." Its no great shakes to teach one to "cast." Teaching one to the point it will "handle" is a different animal. YMMV.

Opinions are like elbows but here is mine. I consider a dog handling when it is proficient at running cold blinds on land and water.

Both excellent replies. In order for a dog to accomplish those things he will have to be well beyond T work where he's only being sent to one pre-identified pile or another. The notion still hangs around that a dog through T work is a handling dog though, and those guys are the ones who jump into cold blinds too soon, or at least into longer or more difficult ones too soon.

EvanG

[BrettG]

The notion still hangs around that a dog through T work is a handling dog though, and those guys are the ones who jump into cold blinds too soon, or at least into longer or more difficult ones too soon.

EvanG[/quote]

What is too soon? Doesn't T teach and reinforce go as sent stop and cast? This is the foundation for doing the things referred to in the replies. You can do all the pattern drills and taught blinds you want but you still have to move to cold blinds at some point. And the dog must be proficient at cold blinds before they can handle the added factors addressed above. For example teaching poison birds on the pattern field is easy but that first time you try to handle off a dead bird in the decoys to a long sailer just off line to that dead bird you get the answer to your question Do you have a handling dog? Just my opinion. I think after about cold blind 500 or so you might get to the handling dog category.

[EvanG]

What is too soon? Doesn't T teach and reinforce go as sent stop and cast? This is the foundation for doing the things referred to in the replies.

Thanks Brett. You've offered some of the common notions about this. Yes, T work builds the foundation by instilling the basic tools that handling is built with. Go, Stop, Cast, and Come are not handling, but rather are the fundamental elements used to train a dog to handle. Once he has those tools firmly in place we begin a process called "Transition". Why is it called that? Because the dog will, during that period, transition from a Basically-trained state toward a Fully-trained state. That takes some time.

You can do all the pattern drills and taught blinds you want but you still have to move to cold blinds at some point. And the dog must be proficient at cold blinds before they can handle the added factors addressed above.

Because of how training was done for so long in older methods, many people presume that pattern blinds (complete with diversion marks) constitute the Transition period. Far from it. In fact for most trainers using modern methods pattern blinds are among the very first transitional drills, and they occupy a brief period. There are many more transition drills that move a dog sequentially into a cold blind standard.

For example teaching poison birds on the pattern field is easy but that first time you try to handle off a dead bird in the decoys to a long sailer just off line to that dead bird you get the answer to your question Do you have a handling dog? Just my opinion. I think after about cold blind 500 or so you might get to the handling dog category.

Yes, and that is why your dog needs to learn that handling sends him somewhere, even if he has no idea where.

All during Basics he always knew where he was going from the start. We pre-identified piles for all those drills, and that is as it should be. I kept things simple. And it put basic components together that he could use to learn how to actually handle. Then come BB Blinds, Gradient blinds, Tune-up drills, Chinese drills, Walk around blinds, and so on. All of those move the dog toward a reliance on the handler to get him where he's going.

While your dog goes through Double T he's not handling. He's only applying the basic Go, Stop, Cast, and Come principles while going to the 5 piles he knows perfectly well. The handler only tells him which one to go to. The cold blinds to come - even the simple ones in early transition - require him to go where the handler tells him to, in spite of the fact he has no idea where his destination is.

EvanG

[BrettG]

Good post Evan. I agree with you. I actually start patterns before I ever do t pattern. I do a 3 legged 60 yd pattern.

[EvanG]

To offer my own summation on what a handling dog is I offer the following.

Yes, "handling dog" is a subjective term; too subjective in my opinion. That was why I started this topic in the first place. One person uses the term, and those who hear it perceive a variety of images. I'm attempting to form a more unified definition for the sake of future discussion. I've avoided defining it by using test categories, like 'Senior dog' or 'Master dog' because those are not levels of training. They're only classes of testing. We all know how many dogs are entered in those classes that lack the training to perform competently in them. The owner just has a wish and a hope the dog will somehow survive today!

I believe that once a dog has become competent at his basic handling skills, and has then had enough transition work to demonstrate an understanding and competence at efficiently lining & casting to cold destinations he has become a handling dog. Not necessarily a finished one, but that's a different topic.

EvanG