American or British

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Odis
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American or British

Postby Odis » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:00 am

Just typing this is hard but I lost my best friend, buddy, coach potato, meathead, etc., Sunday. My son is crushed as am I. I'll never have another like him, he was exactly what I needed when I got him (almost 14 years ago). He had a great life and some of my best memories are of him growing up with my sons. I'm not going to carelessly jump and get a new one but my youngest and I are thinking about a new dog. This time, my son will be more involved with the training. My son will be 16 and I want him to have a dog that is easier to work with. Don't think we want a hyped up dog but do want drive. What are ya'lls thoughts? Just feel like when you fall off the horse you get up, dust yourself off and get back on. In no hurry to get a new one, but want the right one.
Long Cut
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Re: American or British

Postby Long Cut » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:14 am

Sorry for your loss. Been in your shoes. Its tough when a good one leaves you. I have an opinion and its only my opinion. Others here are much more qualified to answer you. I have had two American dogs and a british dog. I don't even claim the british dog a my hunting dog as he just did not turn out (more my fault than the dogs). I trained with British dogs in college and I thought they were great dogs. Very calm, very well mannered and for the most part smaller and more compact. The one thing that I did notice when training with pros and on my own is that the british lab needed a bit of a different type of training. Much less aggressive than I how I learned with American dogs. I really messed up the british that I had and he for some reason was much softer in his demeanor. My newest dog is an American and that works well for me but I have been around many british dogs and they are wonderful dogs I just messed up training the one I had. Depends on what your needs are.
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Re: American or British

Postby mfalkner » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:37 am

Odis,

Man. Always hate to hear about folks losing their beasts, it's hard.

Short answer is there are some really good pups coming along from both American and Brit lines that are trainable, birdy, handsome, and cool to be around. I prefer the British field bred dogs just because of their temperament, but I can show you a sack full of American field type dogs that I'd love to own and hunt with.

If you look at a Brit dog, make sure it's a breeding line that has plenty of drive and you can see proven work from both dam and sire. I have a Brit dog and have some opinions about good and bad which I would share by PM. In fact, I know one litter being planned right now that is going to be amazing and I wish I had time for a new pup right now.
Odis
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Re: American or British

Postby Odis » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:48 pm

Thanks guys, I spoke to someone today that expect to have a litter in a few months that sound interesting, I'm going to look at sire and dam in a week or 2
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Re: American or British

Postby mfalkner » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:39 am

Good deal. Let us know what you find
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Re: American or British

Postby fishduck » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:32 pm

Sorry for the loss of your pup. It is tough but a new dog will help.

As far as British vs American labs, I am firmly entrenched in the US version. Both types have followers and for them it is a religion. I am privileged to watch a lot of hunt test dogs in both the HRC and AKC games and will say there are very nice dogs in both camps.

My suggestion is to attend a hunt test and watch a flight of dogs work. Some will impress, some will amaze and some will leave you shaking your head. Talk to the people who own the dogs you like. Many times they will know of repeat breedings, littermate breedings or possible planned breedings with the dog you like. If you completely forget the British and American stereotypes and pick a puppy from a dog you love then your odds of getting what you want are much better. :D
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Re: American or British

Postby bustercat64 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:16 pm

I just lost mine at age 11 the first of July one of the worst thing I have ever went through. She was a British and I have had several American Labs in the past. Both have strong and weaknesses and what I noticed was the Brit. was wanting to please more than anything and the American just wanted to retrieve. My american labs were happiest when I was working them and my Brit Lab was happiest in just being with me. I looked for 5 years for the right dog to breed my Brit to and now I have the best Lab I could have ever wanted. Don't think my Brit didn't like to hunt she did and we picked up hundreds of birds and went some years 5 days a week.
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Re: American or British

Postby GulfCoast » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:30 am

Odis: I am sorry about your loss. I am about to lose my "heart dog" as well. PM me if you want some litter suggestions.

This "British vs. American" brand label thing needs to quietly fade away. Its mostly someone protecting his "market" that all the generalizations that are not very general or accurate come from. This coming from the guy that owned/trained/campaigned what I believe is the 4th ever HRCH (500+) UH MH "British" dog with UK style placements as well, who hunted her rear end off. Dr. Bill Billups who posts on this board had either the first or the second. Mark Sehon who posts on this board had the first *** UK dog I know of, and I believe they will all pretty much tell you what I am going to say below:

There are hot "British" dogs, "British" dogs that act like an booty in the blind, laid back U.S. field trial dogs that still run 1,000 yard set ups like their rear is on fire, half-trained crackheads, and everything in between. I know, because I judge them too many weekends a year. The important thing is to pick PARENTS and not labels. Pick a puppy based on the characteristics of BOTH the parents, based on an extended pedigree full of titles or seeing them in the field or a test/trial, not running pattern blinds on their daily training grounds. If the breeding stock from a "pro kennel" is not being tested and titled, in either the US games/trials or regularly in the British style stuff-THERE IS A REASON. When the tailgate drops, the BS stops. And read what Fishduck wrote multiple times, he nailed it. I respect the hell out of US FT/GRHRC/MNH*** dogs, and UK FTCH's as well. They all can do amazing things when trained properly. And when trained properly, no one fears the sound of a dropping tailgate.

A British FT bred dog with a good working/trial pedigree with proper basics is a joy to hunt with and run in the dog games of any variety. The same for U.S. field trial dogs, and I keep thinking someone is going to show up with a Grand Dog/MH*** at a British trial and literally school some people who have been programed to think US dogs have no line manners in exchange for the amazing stuff they do in the field. I used to hear British dogs could not run 300 yard blinds, pass master tests, etc. Those folks got schooled, too, by some properly trained dogs. Pick the PARENTS, folks! Don't pick some guys marketing pitch, whether "UK marketing" or "US Marketing." Then you will end up with the dog you want! Good dogs are good dogs, period. :D
So many ducks, so little time....

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mfalkner
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Re: American or British

Postby mfalkner » Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:37 am

pressing the "like" button on Mark's post. Fishduck's also
B3
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Re: American or British

Postby B3 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:52 pm

Just saw this. Great post Mark but I feel I need to correct something. My Teal is HRCH/MH but was not a 500 pt dog so maybe that moves EMD up a spot? Teal is still alive and turns 15 in the next month or so but is getting around very slowly.

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Re: American or British

Postby southernmallard » Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:28 am

GRHRCH Hilltop's Peanut Butter Crackers MH QAA - "Nab"
Jackson's Record Chasing Redux - "Riley"

HAIL STATE
Mark Sehon
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Re: American or British

Postby Mark Sehon » Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:44 am

I have seen some good dogs from both sides of the big pond.
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Re: American or British

Postby Drakeshead » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:09 am

I just found this article in Pheasants Forever and think it is pretty good.

https://pheasantsforever.org/BlogLandin ... -Labs.aspx

You can’t not like a Lab. From the front porch snoozer and toddlers’ playmate to the keen gun dog flushing roosters in gun range, Labs are loved. For 24 years the Labrador retriever has ruled the roost as the American Kennel Club’s most popular breed. Labs also continue to have the highest registration numbers of all the gun dogs in the UK’s Kennel Club. They work as waterfowl retrievers, upland flushers, drug sniffers, therapy dogs, Seeing Eye dogs, and universal companions. It seems that nearly every good dog joke starts with a Lab – a Lab walks into a bar; the doctor ordered Lab tests and cat scans, three Labs were sitting on a bench....

While everyone loves a Lab, in the hunting world – particularly the upland hunting world – there are two camps: those who favor the blocky “British” or “English” Lab and those who favor the lanky “American” Lab. The British breed standard allows a height of 21.5 to 22.5 inches. The American standard permits a height of 21.5 to 24.5 inches (male and female included in these ranges). The British Labs are wider, with fuller chests, thick necks, clearly defined forehead stops, and shorter legs. The American Labs are slimmer, with a narrower head, longer muzzle, longer legs and athletically agile build. The American Labs’ tails tend to be thinner and may curve upward whereas the British Labs’ tails are thick and straight. The British Lab usually has a denser coat. The standard weight for male British Labs is 70-74 lbs.; for females it’s around 55 lbs. American Labs can weigh more.

Both types of Labs have a water-resistant double coat that comes in three colors: black, yellow, and chocolate, with “fox red” considered a subcategory of yellow. The black coat is dominant; chocolate is based on a recessive gene. There are very few chocolate British Labs. Breeders of both types of Labs avoid breeding chocolate to chocolate because of issues that may result from the pairing of recessive genes.

The differences between the two Labs goes deeper than height, coat and shape, however. Breeders’ and breed clubs’ consensus describes British Labs as calmer, quieter, softer and less active as opposed to the American Labs generally being more active with higher energy and greater drive.

The Labrador retriever breed is descended from Newfoundland’s St. John’s water dog that helped pull fishermen’s nets back in the 1800s. Labs joined the English Kennel Club’s registry in 1903 and were first registered by the American Kennel Club in 1917. It is important to note that neither the UK Kennel Club nor the AKC recognizes a difference between these two types of Labrador retriever. Both registries list one breed standard and do not differentiate despite the difference in English or American lineage.

Dennis and Janice Anderson of BritishLabradors.com have been breeding British Labradors for over 28 years in the St. Croix Valley of Wisconsin. Comparing the two types of Labs, Dennis says, “There are good dogs of all origins and great dogs of all origins.”

He goes on to explain that much of the difference between the two types of Labs stems from their training history and the type of hunting they do. The nature of British field hunting comes from a tradition of huge shoots involving hundreds of birds, put on over several days, often for royalty. The fundamental premise is that the dogs must be quiet and controlled at all times – civility is paramount.

“In Great Britain Labradors are used differently than they are in America. Also, the British have a different value system; that is, they emphasize different qualities in their retrievers. To be used on a shoot, or to compete in British field trials, a Labrador in Great Britain must fundamentally be quiet and still; alert but not nervous, even if hundreds of pheasants are being shot over him or her in a driven shoot. Once sent, British Labradors must retrieve game that is either killed dead or crippled. Consequently, they must be excellent game finders.”

Once they were introduced in America, the Labs’ job description diversified. Hunting is a more accessible, egalitarian pursuit in the U.S. Consequently, region, climate, and game species led breeders to develop lines suited to different types of upland or waterfowl hunting. European style shoots gave way to field trials and hunt tests which called for increased athleticism and drive. In response, not only the physical characteristics of the Labs’ changed, but their training methods did as well.

According to Dr. B. W. Zeissow in The Origin and Purpose of the Labrador Retriever, “The American sportsmen adopted the breed from England and subsequently developed and trained the dog to fulfill the hunting needs of this country. Today, as in the past, the Labrador will eagerly enter in ice cold water in Minnesota to retrieve a shot bird; he'll work all day hunting doves in the heat of the Southwest – his only reward is a pat for a job well done.”

Pro-trainer Tom Dokken, author of Retriever Training – the Complete Guide to Developing Your Hunting Dog and inventor of the Deadfowl Trainer, has been working with both types of Labs for over 30 years at Dokken’s Oak Ridge Kennels in Minnesota and around the country. He agrees that the British Labs tend to be a little calmer and the American Labs have higher drive, but he believes the differences aren’t that great.

“We train both,” Tom says. “Good field blood lines produce good upland dogs in both cases. Field bred British Labs can hold up in the pheasant fields as well as the American Labs. The American Labs’ drive gives them an advantage when it comes to late season, big water waterfowl work, but the two types are not way apart on two sides of the fence when it comes to training or working. They’re much closer than most people think.”

Some people believe that British Labs are much easier to train. “The line has to be drawn,” Tom says. “They don’t train themselves. You need a dog to have the desire to work and train, to take the discipline of training. They all need discipline, and a softer dog can be a more difficult dog for an amateur to train. Amateur trainers need dogs that have a natural ability to take discipline and that can recover easily if the trainer makes a mistake.”

Tom adds that the American Labs’ greater drive doesn’t take away from their trainability. “They have the smarts and natural desire to work hard and train hard.”

Both types of Labs make terrific family dogs. As Tom explains, “Ninety-five percent of Labs are house dogs. That means that from seven weeks on, ground rules are set and they learn to recognize the control and be part of the family.”

Some breeders and clubs claim the difference between the British and American Labs should be more appropriately described as the difference between show lines and field lines, the British style being developed for show ring conformation and the American standard for field work. However, statements to that effect are usually followed by a disclaimer noting that there are field-bred British Labs and show-bred American Labs. As with many gun dog breeds, individual lines are often developed to suit one or the other purpose – the show ring or the field – sacrificing characteristics important to one over the other depending on the breeders’ objectives.

Hunters interested in getting a Lab, British or American, should do their research and find breeders who hunt and breed for the field. It can also make a difference if the field breeders’ priority is field trialing, waterfowl retrieving or upland hunting. Dennis adds another important criteria. “The key is to find a breeder who stresses health – eyes, hips, elbows.... A healthy dog is the best dog.”

Story and photos by Nancy Anisfield
Odis
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Re: American or British

Postby Odis » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:53 pm

Ok! I see the difference between American an British! My last dog was hard! You could fuss, raise and bunch of fuss when he refused a command and he'd still want to please, my new puppy (British) is much, much softer, smart as a whip, really wants to please but you cannot change your voice or even raise your voice, he'll pick it up and shut down. Responds to praise like no other but get on him and he shuts down
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Re: American or British

Postby rboudet » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:58 pm

You can find many American bred labs act the same way.

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