Teaching hold

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rjohnson
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Teaching hold

Postby rjohnson » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:00 am

So I've been working on hold with my dog for about a week now. I'm using a small bumper that has very little air in it so it should be easy for her to hold. She has finally after several days started holding it without my hand supporting her lower jaw. However her grip on it is so soft it just barely hangs there. Tapping the bumper a few times it eventually falls out due to her soft grip on it. Any tricks for getting a more firm hold. She doesn't respond well to firm taps on the bridge of the nose or under the chin. Just need more time at it? Keep supporting chin until she finally tightens up the grip? Can't really move her to the ground and through walking patterns with hold until I get this cleared up....I think.
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Re: Teaching hold

Postby mfalkner » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:36 am

Time and repetition. Big praise when pup gets it right, consistent correction when not. Try a paint roller.
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Re: Teaching hold

Postby TBell » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:01 pm

Small bumpers are very easy to drop, so try using a larger bumper or paint roller. I like using canvas bumpers.

When she drops the bumper squeeze her lips against her canines just slightly when you put it back in. Then say hold. When she does it correctly say 'good'. Try and create success, however, increase hold time just slightly each session.

Only do 2-3 hold repeats at a time. Break it up with happy retrieves. Don't worry about returning or holding with those. Then put her back up on the training table and then 2-3 more holds.

If she still is dropping frequently, increase the lip pinching. You can do several of these short sessions a day but stop way before she is irritated with it. :-)
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Re: Teaching hold

Postby rjohnson » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:11 am

She is doing a little better after the last couple of days. She doesn't want to hold it real tight. Most of the time she only holds it tight enough not to drop it. But if I try to pull it away from her without saying drop she holds it tighter. I had been doing the fun bumpers after a couple of holds and that seemed to keep her fired up about it. She bugs out about it some which is noticeable in that she slumps her rump over to one side and doesn't properly which gets immediately correctly then a quick hold, fun bumper, and end session. I was able to move her to the ground tonight and get her to hold while I walked around her and the backyard and she sat still. Will see if I can get her walking with it tomorrow.

Is her grip on it really a huge deal? She isn't dropping it any more but just doesn't have a tight hold. She is holding it after all. It might just be that she's hot and panting so she only holds it as tight as needed to not drop it? Should I just keep moving forward and not be so concerned with how tight her grip on it is?
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Re: Teaching hold

Postby TBell » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:16 am

Sometimes they hold loosely because they are panting, so be sure you do hold as soon as you get her out. The cooler weather will help a bunch.

Since she is holding on to it better, you can lightly tap the ends while repeating the 'hold' command. You are correct that a tight hold at this point is not critical. She will get in trouble with it later such as in walking with with a loose hold.

I find it easier to start with a sit before a walking hold. Give her the bumper and say 'hold' while she is standing up. Then ask her to sit while saying 'hold'. At first they will drop it, so pinch her lips while putting the bumper back in her mouth while saying 'hold'. Get one good hold-sit and say GOOD DOG! Release her for some happy bumpers.

Once you can get a good sit-hold then begin walking her a little with hold before sit. I usually hold the dog's collar at the beginning to be sure I have their attention. If their head is loose at all such as on lead, it will cause them to lose grip more quickly.

It sounds like you are very attentive to her when she looses interest, so try and stop at the first signs of disinterest. Gradually increase hold time each session.

I like to mix up table/yard sessions with some obedience and 'formal' retrieves based on where she is at on her hold. What that means is that I don't pound it out with her on one command. Mix it up like Hillmann does in his puppy video.

I call it the conditioned retrieve instead of 'force fetch'. It is not a rigid process such as 'ff' with ear pinches and squealing. It is a slow easy learning process of slightly increased 'pressure' and holds until the dog has learned what you expect. The amount of 'pressure' necessary depends directly on the dog and every dog is different, so be careful and good luck!
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Re: Teaching hold

Postby rjohnson » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:37 pm

Agree with the gradual process. This week I have been just been doing two 15-30 seconds holds on a table then throw a couple of fun bumpers, rinse and repeat but before getting back on the table do a little sit with distractions like bouncing a ball or throwing a stick or something then back to the table. This seems to keep her more attentive because she's still a big ole puppy at heart. Really she is still a puppy as she just turned one. I was thinking last night the looser holds seem to come after the first set of fun bumpers so panting is probably the issue. She goes balls to the wall wide open after retrieves and the same speed coming back so she gets hot quick which is why I'm doing this mostly at night in the backyard.

Thinking more about what you are saying on a conditioned retrieve over a "forced" retrieve is going to make me rethink some of the steps along the way. I have been following EvanG's book so far. I think I'll be looking at some of Hillman's stuff as well now. It may bite me in the ass at some point but I may end up using some from both or whatever seems to fit my dog the best at whatever stage she is in. Trying to not get tunnel vision and try to fit a square peg in a round hole if something isn't working for us. She responds to pressure but it doesn't take much to reinforce what is taught. She seems to respond way better to praise than treats or pressure when teaching and reinforcing. Probably another thread for another but just some things I was thinking about while we were doing fun bumpers to end a session the other night.
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Re: Teaching hold

Postby TBell » Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:40 am

I'm really not familiar with Evan G's stuff. I ordered his force fetch book years ago, and it was so long I could never read it all. It certainly doesn't hurt to mix methods to find what works for your dog.

As she does better with the holds, you can grab her collar and shake her a little. Shake just enough to get her to drop it, and then replace with the lip pinch saying hold. Once she is able to walk and sit while holding the bumper, I would transition into the 'fetch' command when placing the bumper in her mouth.

I also begin to use the collar or a slight ear pinch with the 'fetch' command. This is the trickiest part of the whole process. It is entirely dependent upon each dog's reaction whether I use the ear or the collar. (Most dogs today only need the tip of their ear squeezed ever so slightly.) Timing is critical in this step, as the 'pressure' must stop as soon as the bumper is in their mouth for them to understand. (I hate the word 'PRESSURE' and should replace it with 'STIMULATION'.) It doesn't take much for most dogs to begin to reach for the bumper. If they are not reaching for the bumper within several mini-sessions, you might begin increasing the pressure er stimulation.

And you are very correct that they respond to praise, so BE SURE to say 'good dog' when she does something correctly. When my dog is holding the bumper nicely without a 'busy' mouth, I'll say 'good' and repeat 'good hold' and pet their head while they do it nicely. If they begin mouthing and rolling the bumper, say 'no' and grab their mouth and the bumper like you did with the finger hold and repeat 'hold' until they have a quiet mouth again. Again timing is critical, so when the finally stop mouthing, say 'good' so they know what you want.

It is really a fun process to watch their eyes as they finally understand what you are asking, and it can be done without any dog screaming, crying, rolling or jumping to escape!
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Re: Teaching hold

Postby rjohnson » Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:35 am

Got her on the ground with hold for a couple of days. Got her moving last night with hold. It was just a simple hold on the ground then I backed away a few steps and slapped my hip for heel and kept saying hold. She got into heel position with a hold so I quickly grabbed bumper, commanded drop, and praised her then some fun bumpers. Repeated this 4 times with 3 successful. She is still holding it just tight enough not to drop it but she is panting so I think that's why she isn't holding it tight. Will do another session or two on that before walking heel or whenever she seems ready to walk and hold with me.

Now after I get her walking at heel and holding how much time and how many repetitions doing walking patterns? And how long should I stretch the hold times out before moving on? Should she be able to hold for a minute, 5 minutes, 30 minutes both sitting and walking? What is the general consensus before moving on to FF fun? Basically when did you say pup is ready for next step?
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Re: Teaching hold

Postby TBell » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:55 pm

If she is still not holding tightly, increase weight of bumper or shake her head in order to make her drop it. Start giving little ear pinches instead of the lip pinch and use the command 'fetch' when you place it back in her mouth after she drops it. Do this only a couple of times and then give happy bumpers.

Slowly increase the hold time each session. I don't use a time limit on hold before ff since it is such a gradual process for me with lip pinch, ear pinch, and then collar.
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Re: Teaching hold

Postby rjohnson » Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:36 pm

double post
Last edited by rjohnson on Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Teaching hold

Postby rjohnson » Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:43 pm

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Re: Teaching hold

Postby TBell » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:31 am

Yes, it is a gradual learning process. You should see the grip getting better and hold times increasing. If you don't see progress, you're probably not increasing the 'adverse stimulation' enough.

I start on a training table, tree stand or hunting platform first and then move to the ground. After I'm getting a fairly good hold time (1+ minute) I'll begin to enforce hold on bumpers in the field occasionally. Mix it up. When she begins reaching for the bumper with ear pinches, you can start increasing the pinch severity. I usually fold their ear back onto the collar and pinch the tip of the ear against the collar with my nail.

Eventually I like to add a low continuous stimulation with the E-collar with the 'fetch' command. Be careful not to have too much stimulation and be sure to immediate stop stimulation when the bumper hits the mouth. At first you will have to 'make' them take the bumper to stop the stimulation. Eventually they will start to reach for it ever so slightly. You want to create success when using this process!

I guess I'm different in this process than most, but I don't like to burn them out on one step at a time.
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Re: Teaching hold

Postby rjohnson » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:00 pm

Past few days have been applying light ear pinches with fetch and she's reaching for it so I'll turn it a little every day over the next week. She's now moving to me from sit and hold but having to work on her dropping when she gets to me now. We've had a few done correctly so I just immediately say drop and take it before she gets a chance to mess up when she gets to me. Will work on extending that a little bit to get her to hold after moving until commanded to drop. Still have a loose hold on just simple sitting holds but she no longer chews/rolls bumper when retrieving so I know it is helping her and she is getting it.
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Re: Teaching hold

Postby TBell » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:54 am


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