Started

[chance]

The started hunting retriever is judged according to its natural ability to mark. It is not to be judged for control(trainable), unless of course the handler chooses to run the without a leash. The started test should consist of minimum cover or distractions that could discourage the started dog.
Could the use of decoys in a started test be more distraction than a started dog should be exposed to? I have seen as many as 3 dozen decoys in a started test. I know some on this board have seen that too. I would consider the started dog picking up and retrieving a decoy, a training issue. If I used a bunch of decoys in a started test, could I be setting up a test that would cause a dog to fail through no fault of its own?

[kaustin]

I see your point, but most of the time in the test that I have seen, the decoys are placed far enough from the fall not to be an issue. If the dog truly "marks" the area and has been at least introduced to decoys, they should not be an issue if properly placed. At old hatchie we had a situation that a dog drug a decoy all the way to the fall area. It definitely changed the test and got the attention of a few dogs but all finished the retrieve. I thought the judges should have removed the decoy from the area to avoid any potential problems but all turned out O.K. I wonderred what their ruling would have been if the dog had gotten so distracted by the decoy that he retrieved it instead of the bird. I like these type of post. They help both judges and handlers to think things through.

[Jeff]

If you also remember the premise of HRC, you should ask yourslelf the question would I want to hunt with this dog when deciding to pass or fail ? This is true even in Started. Therefore I would not want to hunt with a dog that is scared of decoys. Even though they tend to be younger dogs, decoys should be part of the training program and I feel a started dog should be okay around decoys. WHen my dog was 8 mo. old she was hunting in 2-3000 goose rag spreads, although that isn't the norm, I made sure she was used to these kind of "distractions" throughout my training program.

[SkippyJ]

LIke Jeff said...IMO...I'm training a hunting retriever and running a hunting retriever club sanctioned test. I've always hunted ducks. Period. I've always hunted with a dog. Period. Decoys are a part of what I hunt over and the dog will see them from the very first time it gets to hunt. So why not go ahead and introduce them early in training, teach the young pup that it's a part of the big picture as much as hearing a duck call, riding in a boat, the sound of the action of a shotgun...etc. Bottom line...train for it. I got into HRC just like the majority of the people did. Wanting a better hunting dog and by influence and exposure that I OWE a group that participate in this forum. Sure the bug bit and bit HARD!!! Now I'm hooked for life, seeing what the right training and right attitude of the dog can produce. I have my opinions of started, like delivery to hand, but that's a whole different topic. That's not the subject. Many people have different opinions of what started is for/should be for. Last thing I'm trying to do is start a ya ya about that.

My point is, if you may see a certain situation/set-up in what ever class your running, train for it. I mean how hard is it to throw out 1/2 dozen decoys in the yard, let the pup check them out, show him what you want, and pick up marks behind them?? The dogs we have these days WANT to please and WANT to do the work. Show them what you want, teach it, and then enforce it.

3 dozen in started??? Maybe much, I don't know how they were set out and how the mark fell in relation to the dekes. The last started test I have run (W Miss and Hurricane) all had decoys. But, I had trained/ran mine through decoys from the time she understood to concentrate on the mark.

Great post Chance!!![/i]

[dukdawgn]

first off.... a started dog is expected to be under control. we don't overlook a dog out of control just because you have the right to hold the dog on leash. the ability to leash a dog in started is simply an allowance for the handler to help control the dog. control is control, whether it be leash or no leash. judging a started dog for control these days is getting to be a moot point, as 80% or better can walk to the line off lead, sit, and retrieve on their own. for the other 20% that give room to be judged for control, i believe we are primarily looking for the dog to be quiet, got get it, and bring it back. if the dog is tugging or standing on two legs being held on leash, the dog isn't necessarily out of control, it is just fighting what we enable the handler to do. but if the dog is loud when told not to be, running around when told not to be, then it is out of control, and will probably judged as such.

second.... although I haven't seen many test prep's where someone is prepared to collect 3 dozen decoys once they are tossed out, I wouldn't have a problem with it. decoys are meant to fool ducks, not dogs. we are looking to exhibit a natural hunting ability, not the ability to simply retrieve. a dog with good natural hunting ability may not comprehend exactly what a plastic decoy is, but it will sure know it doesn't have feathers and is not game. i've never seen a dog thats hunting something bring back a decoy; i've seen plenty of dogs out for a game a fetch bring back anything but the duck. would I fail a started dog for bringing back a decoy? only if it did it twice on one mark.... would I fault a started dog for bringing back a decoy? nope. it can't help what natural ability it has. would I fault you for setting up a test that showed me where my dog needs some help? nope. wouldn't do me any good

[chance]

You never judge a started dog for trainability unless the handler makes the choice. You judge it soley on its natural ability to mark a bird down and retrieve it. I have hunted with a started dog. Carried more rocks than I did shotgun shells. Seen a buncha finished dogs I would hunt with but still could not pass a finished test.
Whether a started dog can handle a buncha decoys in a test is a matter of training, Not natural ability. The question is, "Are a buncha decoys in started necessary to test that dog's natural ability?".
By the way, that West Miss. test is the very one that I question the use of decoys in a started test. Seen em scared of them and seen em retrieve them. Started judges should really question why they use decoys in a started test.

[Jeff]

Yes you want to see marking and that is mainly what you want to see at a started test period. However, just as you want to see dogs bust cover and take a line in higher stakes, I want a started retreiver to go through decoys. I feel it is well within the rules of HRC and a good concept to have in it.
Lemme ask you this, if marking is all natural ability and the dog marks the fall, why would decoys matter? All they are is something to swim/run through on the way to the mark the dog already knows where it is. Right?
Really no different than grass, tules, water, etc., just another thing to get to the mark.

[kaustin]

[chance]

[Jeff]

[skuna]

[goosebruce]

[dukdawgn]

[D1]

[Meeka]

The judge put so many decoys out himself. They were his decoys and picked them up. He did it because he believes that realism is an important part of the test. I admire that.

We should always strive for as much realism as possible. We probably do not see enough of it. It is an important consideration. So is decoy placement.

Jeff made a very important point, in my opinion. The vast majority of dogs in HRC tests are trained and handled by people who have experience with training and with handling at tests. But for every amatuer, there was a first time exposure to HRC and hunt tests; and it came at some started test somewhere. And they survived the experience and became hooked!

In no way am I saying we need to dumb down our tests, but we need to remember that some of the people and dogs at the test will be first timers. After all, it is Started. To me, started is for those people. Most of the people on this forum, started ain't "for" you, cause you can and do started at home. Skippy J will have had his dog going through decoys for a mark before he gets around to the test.

But with all that rambling, the rulebook supports both the concept of started being started and being real. The answer, if there is one, is on page 32 of our rulebook: "This test is for started hunting retrievers and handlers. It duplicates actual hunting conditions throughout the local area. Judges will look for natural ability rather than trained performance. The started Test is for young or inexperienced hunting retrievers. A Started Hunting Retriever might not have had the experience of a season of hunting or limited exposure to hunting and/or training. A Started Hunting Retriever should be able to do a simple dove or waterfowl hunt and retrieve game from land and water.

Clear as mud?

The book goes on to say: "The test must duplicate actual hunting conditions." Page 33. And says: "Hunting equipment such as boats, decoys, duck blinds,, calls, etc. will be used in these tests". But "The dog must have a clear view of the fall." Page 35.

So how many is too many? I don't know, but I think the location of the decoys is more important than the number.